Fisheries Committee on March 24th, 2022

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

You touched on it, but could you expand on whether we will be seeing funds set aside specifically for workers as they transition?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

We are in discussion with the provincial government. I had a meeting with the provincial fisheries minister prior to this cabinet shuffle, and I've requested to meet with the new fisheries minister so that we can talk about the set of things that have provincial and federal jurisdictional overlap.

Yes, I'm interested in a just transition in this industry, and on just what the detailed elements of the rest of the transition may be, we are working on that by consulting with the various partners and players who are affected by this.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Minister.

I want to make sure I have time for a third question. I have so many questions to ask.

I wanted to touch on the reallocation of crab fishing quotas to first nations in an effort to reconcile the loss of traditional and constitutionally protected indigenous rights to catch and sell fish on the west coast of British Columbia. While we're seeing that there is agreement that first nations rights must be honoured to correct historical wrongs, there are frustrations on all sides about the lack of consultation with commercial fishers as well as first nations.

Commercial fishers shouldn't be bearing the costs of this decision. Will the government act quickly to fully compensate the impacted crab fishers for economic losses and invest in transitional supports so they may pursue other options for their livelihoods?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

The answer is yes. We are working with the various parties. We have every intention of mitigating some of the impacts on the commercial harvesters. My understanding is that this will be a graduated transition, which provides time for us to really understand the full impact and elements and to provide some mitigation support.

What is non-negotiable is that the local indigenous communities have a right to fish for crab. We cannot undermine our conservation values by just adding that on to existing authorizations and licences. This transition will be done carefully, in discussion with all parties and as fairly as possible.

The deputy may have something to add to that.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Do I have time for one—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

No, actually, you've gone over.

I'd like to remind members that if you're having a conversation with the person seated next to you, try to do it as quietly as possible. For some reason it was very easy to hear it here at the head of the table. It was the same for some staff sitting close by. I just want to remind members of that.

We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less, please.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the minister for appearing again today with members from your department.

Minister, in your opening remarks you noted $36.8 million for the Pacific salmon strategic initiative. I would take it that this is a priority for your department.

In this committee's study of the flooding in B.C., the committee heard that the PSSI would be the delivery program to address the impacts of the flooding, yet the committee has also heard that PSSI was being built from the ground up and is not yet operational. It baffles me as to why a program that is non-operational, or not fully operational, would be designated as a delivery program for actions that are needed now and not months down the road.

Can you tell us today quickly where the process of the Pacific salmon strategic initiative development is at? How much of the $647 million has already been committed and to what?

If the answer is lengthy, we can take that answer in writing, but I would appreciate a brief breakdown today, please.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you for that question. I'm sure we can provide more detail in a written response.

However, the $36.8 million is what is available through the supplementary estimates (C) when that gets voted on. That's not a fifth of the total amount, which is closer to $750 million. The important thing is to set things up in year one. That's what year one is about.

The flood response is not waiting for us to set up the PSSI to respond. In fact, I've been part of the emergency committee that was set up and made up of provincial and federal cabinet ministers just days after the flood happened so that we could work together and really identify all of the various impacts of those terrible floods on people, on their businesses, on farms and on habitat.

My part of that is to make sure that the salmon habitat is considered, that our hatcheries are repaired—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I'll wait for the full response on how much has been committed already.

Recently, I put out an invitation for fish harvesters and others to provide me with questions they would like asked.

Justen from Falkland in my riding of North Okanagan—Shuswap, sent me this. He asked, “When will you implement UNDRIP and reinstate jurisdiction over fisheries and waterways to first nations?”

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I would tell Justen that is an ongoing process of looking at the rights that indigenous peoples have, and ensuring that they are involved in the fisheries and the economic opportunities they bring, as well as the processing sector. We're very involved in that process on all three coasts.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Reconciliation is a big part of that. It's also a concern that's being raised by British Columbian harvesters. They support reconciliation, but one identified that it is a national obligation.

You've announced decisions under the auspices of reconciliation, and some of these have profound impacts on the harvesters. If you can agree that reconciliation is a national responsibility, do you think it's fair and appropriate that one group of Canadians, like the crab harvesters in B.C., or the elver harvesters in the Maritimes, are responsible for bearing the cost of that reconciliation?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

You're right. I agree that reconciliation is a national responsibility, and we're doing that on all three coasts.

We are working with the industry on the transition of some of the licences to indigenous communities. Those licences are not property owned by the current harvesters. However, we want to make sure that we provide for the costs, and we're having those conversations on each of these matters.

Perhaps the deputy has more to offer on that.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

I will move on to my next question.

Aquatic invasive species are very important to me and my riding in the interior of British Columbia. In 2019, the Prime Minister issued the fisheries minister a mandate to make new investments to fight invasive species. Apart from adding a single full-time FTE at DFO Pacific, your previous Minister Jordan failed to deliver on her mandate.

When will you, as fisheries minister, stand up for British Columbians and other provinces and finally deliver new investments to fight against aquatic invasive species in B.C.?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

If we could get an answer in writing, that would be great. We've gone well over the five-minute allotment, unfortunately.

We'll now go to Mr. Badawey, for five minutes or less, please.

[Vance Badawey, Liberal, Niagara Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and thank you, Madam Minister, for being here this morning.

Madam Minister, since 2015, as you know I have worked almost daily with colleagues and stakeholders to advance the government's Great Lakes agenda. You've been a part of that dialogue, your staff has, and I want to thank you for that.

To be blunt, our government made several Great Lakes platform promises in both 2015 as well as 2019 that would be quite impactful on the basin, and I am anxious to move these commitments ahead, as you know.

Your department, as I've said earlier, has played and continues to play a big role. I'm pleased to hear in your opening remarks that you are well positioned, Madam Minister, to advance the government's agenda. I would like to drill down on precisely what that means for the Great Lakes and would like to know more about your Great Lakes plan.

The reason I want to get into the weeds on this is that DFO has not always focused on the Great Lakes. In fact, many Great Lakes stakeholders call the Great Lakes Canada's “forgotten coast”. The Great Lakes rarely factor in government strategies on water and fisheries. As just one example, when you appeared at the committee on the topic of your mandate letter, the subject never even came up by you or your staff or members of the committee. Not one of the members from any party asked about your Great Lakes role.

Of course, some of this stems from the fact that despite the Great Lakes being home to an $8-billion fishery—that's a “b”—there is not one MP from Ontario on the committee, which is unfortunate, and hence one of the reasons I am here today.

This missing link means that there are policy and knowledge gaps in what is raised around the table with respect to the Great Lakes. For example, when the blue economy strategy was first devised, it failed to account for anything other than Canada's coastal fisheries, and as I have raised with your department many times, not all fish swim in salt water.

Ignoring the economic output of the Great Lakes is to ignore billions' worth of untapped potential, and I was certainly pleased to see that you've fixed that shortcoming in the most recent incarnation of the strategy. I am hopeful that this awareness is foreshadowing what is to come. We spoke about this on many occasions. Once again, I want to thank you for that.

I say this all as a former mayor who sat, and continues to sit, on the Great Lakes...as an MP and who knows the triple bottom line implications of the Great Lakes, that being the economic, environmental and socio-cultural. Thirty-five hundred species of plants and animals, drinking water for millions, 238,000 jobs and fifty billion dollars' worth of economic output should at the very least warrant serious consideration in this upcoming federal budget. The Great Lakes fishery alone is worth $8 billion—once again with a “b”— annually, yet Canada has for 40 years fallen short on our promises to the Great Lakes Fishery Commission, something that I hope will be fully addressed once again in the upcoming budget.

Minister, with all this as context, I have two simple questions.

First, of the $243.2 million in new authorizations before us today, how much will be specifically allocated to Great Lakes projects and programming, and how will these new resources specifically advance your promise to advance the government's Great Lakes agenda?

Secondly, can you point to the line in the supplementary estimates (C) or in any financial document brought before the committee that specifies the exact amount of our allocation to the Great Lakes Fishery Commission to support that binational organization and the work they do to protect the $8-billion Great Lakes Fishery?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, I'd like to thank the member for his tireless championing of the Great Lakes area, its people, its economy and its environment. He's truly a champion for the Great Lakes. I'm pleased that we as the Department of Fisheries and Oceans are involved in the Great Lakes Fishery Commission to address the invasive species of sea lamprey, and in a successful way over many decades.

I've talked about that already, so if there are specific answers to the quantitative requests that the member has, we will provide that.

What I do want to say is that freshwater fisheries across Canada are delegated to the provinces. I was in provincial government, for example, many years ago, and I was the delegated authority by DFO to do activities and management in the land aspect of the fisheries. My guess is that the provinces that are involved with the Great Lakes, such as Ontario, have fisheries officers and others who are active in that regard. We do look after small craft harbours, so there are harbours in some of our freshwater fisheries.

I will draw attention to our government's new national water strategy that Parliamentary Secretary Terry Duguid has announced recently, which s a very timely and important way to look more holistically at Canada's fresh water, its environment, its use, its protection, its importance economically and to have a framework for moving forward to have healthy, abundant fresh water as a nation, as we're known to have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Badawey. That went a little bit over time, but I want to make sure we get answers on the record when somebody starts to answer a question.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens.

You have two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I will begin by bringing the minister's attention to my little fish, the capelin in the St. Lawrence River. We are not giving up on the fish. We have two capelin fisheries to save, two fisheries that are part of intangible heritage. To ensure their survival, we need the opening date for those fisheries to be set for April 1. So I want the minister and her colleague to know that we will not give up on the capelin. There is a substantial file showing that the St. Lawrence capelin, according to DNA tests, has nothing to do with the Newfoundland and Labrador capelin.

I just wanted to mention all this. I am not asking for an answer right away, but I wanted to tell them that we will remain very active in this file. On April 1, our deadline, I will bring the minister a little fish.

I would like to hear the minister's or her assistant's comments on the way the $5.5 million will be broken down to advance the reconciliation of indigenous rights and issues related to fishing.

I would also like to know what the minister considers subsistence fishing.

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I thank the member for her question.

I will ask the deputy minister to answer the question on the $5.5 million.

As for the effective date of April 1, we use the best scientific data available, in consultation with the industry, to determine the opening of our fishing seasons. We are looking at the scientific data. It is important for this review to be done to inform any decision on the opening date.

That said, we do understand the importance for fishers in your riding to have a date soon.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Actually, we're just over time, so if we could get a written response on the numbers part of that question and answer, that would be great. I'm trying to get in everything I can in this round.

Ms. Barron, go ahead for two and a half minutes, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Looking toward the upcoming budget, I want to ask how the minister will move forward to ensure that commercial fishing licences are benefiting coastal communities and not foreign corporations. In the upcoming budget, will west coast commercial fishers see a renewed commitment to ensuring that beneficial ownership in our fishery remains in Canada, and see support for our west coast owner-operator licensing model?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

Well, I do support economically viable and sustainable fisheries on all coasts. I want to thank the committee—I know that MP Hardie had a big hand in this—for having a study of the ownership structure of our fisheries on the west coast. Our department is analyzing the various aspects of ownership structures so that we can look at what changes, if any, might be needed going forward. We want to make sure that any future policy takes into consideration the needs, rights and views of indigenous groups and that the policy solutions work for all British Columbians.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you.

I wanted to reiterate the timeliness of the second part of the question I was asking about before. We're hearing from the B.C. crab association, and they're repeatedly explaining their frustration. Unfortunately, what we're hearing is that it is landing on deaf ears—that we're having their fishery access cut in half, with no timely compensation or mitigation, and no proper framework for consultation, or table to negotiate a fair compensatory mechanism in place.

We don't want to have families going bankrupt as a result of the inaction that is occurring or the decisions that are resulting. When will this be addressed? We know that this allocation will come into effect on April 1. It's creating unnecessary division. Could you please speak to this and to this very timely issue?

[Joyce Murray, Liberal, Vancouver Quadra, BC]

I would say to the member that sometimes with court decisions, the timing of that is not in our control. It might not give us as much time as we would like, but we have to do this right. That's what we're engaged with now.

The deputy may have some details to offer on that.