Evidence of meeting #130 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was habitat.
A recording is available from Parliament.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
Section 35 authorization can be two to three years, generally. We've been hoping that for our sector, for example, some of that work can take place in parallel to the Impact Assessment Act.
For projects that aren't under the IAA and don't have that potential, you don't have to worry about the IAA, so I guess I can't say it's a potential advantage, but it's about two to three years, generally, depending on the complexity of the project.
Conservative
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
It was getting better. It was getting closer to 18 months to two years for a section 35 authorization. It was starting to get more efficient.
You have to keep in mind that what's happening is that resources and expertise are being drawn away from these major projects to routine authorizations like culvert replacements and so on, and that's the problem. There isn't enough to go around, and the department is burying itself in paperwork.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
The department's budget has grown exponentially over the last nine years, but you're saying there are actually fewer people doing the project approval work, or there are fewer resources.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
We observed that it didn't grow so much on the permitting side of the department. There's a lot more science. Human resources grew. I guess it was to manage the extra people. We did not see that the number of people responsible for permitting necessarily grew, and even so, even if there are more bodies, they're doing so much more minor works work that they don't have enough to go around.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay. It's simply not efficient use of the resources or the department to keep our economy running.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
It's not an efficient use at all, no.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Okay. Thank you.
I'll go back to Mr. Lapointe.
Mr. Lapointe, I believe in a submission or at some point you mentioned habitat banking. It's only able to be done, I believe, through proponents right now. You are promoting the idea that it be able to be done through third parties. Can you expand on that a little bit in a few seconds?
Senior Conservation Biologist, Freshwater Ecology, Canadian Wildlife Federation
Yes, that's a model that's been used in the U.S. It would really create an opportunity for any party to invest in a large, meaningful restoration project and use that to sell credits. It could be a good solution for small sales of credits for those small projects. It would help industry, because then the offsetting is done in advance, so they can simply buy in. That's not enabled right now.
Our understanding is that it's fairly complex, but the department has not been working to solve that or to build that system so that it could be implemented. We're hoping to see work towards that beginning soon.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Arnold.
We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less, please.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you.
Mr. Lapointe, you've talked about some salmon issues. Look, I'm a hunter. I'm a fisherman. Since my younger days, it's been my passion. Every time I have time, I go out.
You've talked about the state of the salmon population right now in Canada and probably also in the U.S. Of course, the Fisheries Act itself—the piece of paper, the legislation—can certainly do things to protect those species at risk.
Beyond that—before going back to what's in the act—you talked about fish passage and things like that. Don't you also think that there's some overfishing in some areas? For example, Greenland still has a quota of, I think, 25 tonnes. I know that the government did some great negotiation with them a couple of years ago. What will we need in the Fisheries Act to make sure that those species can rebound? Fish passage is all good. Look, fish habitat protection, of course.... I'm putting that out there because this is what we are here for.
You talk about first nations. Of course they have a right for food, social and ceremonial purposes. I have a first nation community in my riding that does very well when it comes to protecting the habitat and everything. However, when the state of a population like salmon is in danger, do you also think that first nations, for example, should be able to still fish for food, social and ceremonial purposes, or should the resources be the number one priority?
I'll go back to my other question: Can we do something else? Can we put something into the act that will satisfy a group like you, making sure that salmon, other species at risk and other species can rebound from what we're seeing right now?
Senior Conservation Biologist, Freshwater Ecology, Canadian Wildlife Federation
Yes, it's a complicated question.
Senior Conservation Biologist, Freshwater Ecology, Canadian Wildlife Federation
When we have a fish species in decline, it is usually a combination of habitat issues, overfishing and broader habitat issues, such as land use and climate change. All of those need to be addressed.
My expertise is not in commercial fisheries management, so it's difficult to say to what extent there's overfishing occurring internationally versus in Canada. There are also challenges with mixed-stock fisheries being overharvested. Certain parts of that population are healthy, and other parts are endangered. If you're harvesting them together, you may be overharvesting the endangered parts.
We have a real challenge in the fact that commercially listed endangered species that should be considered by the DFO and recommended for listing under the Species at Risk Act are not. I work a lot on American eel, and that species has now been waiting 12 years for the DFO's decision as to whether or not it should be listed so that we can get on with either protecting it as a listed species or managing it outside of that. I do think that more quickly addressing endangered species under the Species at Risk Act when they are commercially harvested would help us to decide how to manage limited harvest of those species.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Okay.
You've talked a little bit about the difficulty that you have for approval for a project like the fish passage, for example. Is that what you were saying—that it's difficult to deal with the DFO on those initiatives that you want to do?
Senior Conservation Biologist, Freshwater Ecology, Canadian Wildlife Federation
It can be a little difficult. It depends on where we work.
We have great partners in the Pacific region that have helped us streamline those restoration projects. Prescribed work for restoration projects would help streamline that as well.
My bigger concern is the smaller projects that aren't restoration projects and are causing harm. Those projects are being managed in a way that's not good for fish habitat and not good for industry either. It's sort of a lose-lose approach.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Mr. Gratton or Ms. Morrison, you're also saying the same thing, which is that it's difficult sometimes to deal with something like culvert replacement when we should be doing that in 24 hours.
What is it that's making this so difficult? Is it the delay on everything, on waiting for appropriation? What did you encounter when dealing with this? Was it dealing with officials? Was it dealing with some other agency?
What is the biggest issue you have when it comes to dealing with some of those small things that you were telling us about?
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
It's hard to know what goes on inside the department, but it's almost like what we went through with passports a few years ago: You send in your application and then you wait.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
How long could it be? It could be three months. It could be nine months. You could miss a season.
Also, it depends on the region. As we know, DFO has different regions, and different regions have different pressures. Delays in some regions can be greater than in others.
That's the problem. It goes into a bit of a black box, and you can keep following up, but you're in a queue. When you think of culvert replacements or beaver dam removals or some of the more elementary activities on the land base, there are lots of them. It's the pure volume, and you're just one on a list of items that are waiting to be attended to.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Is there something that maybe we can do as a template for a group like you? For example, “This is what you need to do if you want to replace a culvert”, blah-blah, and then maybe there's an investigation or someone can go and see what happened, and if you did it wrong, you're fined at a high level—
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
That's exactly what the act is supposed to be doing.
President and Chief Executive Officer, Mining Association of Canada
It's just that it hasn't been done. That's the problem.