Fisheries Committee on April 5th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have 30 seconds.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

You mentioned that this was the first time you've investigated a container spill, only because there was a fire involved. Is that correct? Did you not investigate those other container spills?

[Kathleen Fox]

As I mentioned in my opening remarks, four other container spills that we're aware of were reported to TSB in the last 10 years. All of these occurrences are assessed and it's determined what level of investigation is going to be done. We collect some data and then we archive that. We report on it in our statistics that we report on monthly and then again annually.

In this case, the initiating factor for the investigation of the Zim Kingston was the fire. However, of course we'll look at the preceding factors that led to the fire. As I indicated, one of those was the ignition of dangerous goods that were in some of those containers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

Actually, Mr. Hardie, you're up next. Thank you, Mr. Arnold. I don't know which one of you will feel insulted by that comment, but you can straighten that out yourselves.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for six minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Mel has better hair. I'm sorry. I have to say it.

Ms. Fox, I've always particularly valued your appearance in front of this committee because you have a pretty good grasp on the history of issues, as well as the one in question. I respect the fact that there's not a lot you can tell us about what's being discovered in this situation.

I'll probably just lift it up to the 30,000- to 50,000-foot view and get some general ideas from you.

First of all, it was because the fire put the vessel at risk. Was that really the trigger that brought in the TSB to this particular incident?

[Kathleen Fox]

The investigation was launched under the authority of Mr. Harvey as the director of investigations for marine, so I'd ask him to respond, please.

[Clifford Harvey]

Thank you, Ms. Fox and thank you, Mr. Chair.

Yes, when we received notification of the occurrence, we looked at the circumstances surrounding it. We looked at the fire and we assessed the occurrence. We decided to deploy and start gathering information to undertake the investigation.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Generally speaking, do you try to keep up to date on worldwide incidents where containers are lost and the vessel itself might have been rendered unstable because of shifting loads?

[Kathleen Fox]

Mr. Harvey can perhaps speak to what's happening at the international level and our involvement there.

[Clifford Harvey]

Thank you, Ms. Fox.

Mr. Chair, as Ms. Fox mentioned in her opening remarks, we are actively participating with our international partners at the International Maritime Organization and through our work at the Marine Accident Investigators' International Forum as well. We're closely following examples or cases of other container losses worldwide. We're looking at what underlying factors are there as well. We're sharing lessons learned with our international partners and actually, at times, going into in-depth studies in the work that other organizations or administrations may do in accordance with investigations they conduct.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Bad weather is not unusual, even in the Pacific. Would the TSB be aware of any incident where perhaps containers weren't lost, but the loads had shifted and it was basically a close call and a vessel limps into Vancouver harbour with its containers all askew? Would you be made aware of situations where we may have had a close call?

[Kathleen Fox]

It is a reportable occurrence.

Mr. Harvey, go ahead.

[Clifford Harvey]

Thank you, Ms. Fox.

Mr. Chair, yes, it is a reportable occurrence. I don't have those statistics in front of me right now, but I can certainly review our data and provide that information to the committee, should it be desired.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

We'd appreciate that very much.

Obviously, we saw the loss of containers, but one would suspect that there have been many more close calls. Where there are close calls, either in our jurisdiction or in others, is data gathered on what caused it? We can always point to weather, etc., but I'm thinking more of the resilience of the vessel and its cargo to bad weather and whether or not the systems are adequate to keep the cargo and the vessel safe.

Is there any kind of international gathering of data leading to recommendations on that issue?

[Clifford Harvey]

Mr. Chair, I can speak in generalities on the information that is being gathered. I can report that when it comes down to the actual cargo-securing mechanisms on board these container vessels, they use a twist-lock system or another mechanism that secures the cargo to the vessel and secures the cargo containers to each other.

These vessels work on very tight schedules. Oftentimes, we've seen internationally that there have been maintenance issues with the securing mechanisms. However, I can also say that the cargo, when it's secured on board, is secured in accordance with the cargo safety manual that is approved by the flag state of the vessel, and done in accordance with an assessment of the stability of the vessel.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

What about the actual loading of the vessel? Are you aware of best practices in terms of where things go? For instance, somebody was telling me the other day that they don't like to put flammable materials below deck, because that could be an issue. So if they can't go below deck, where do they go?

Is there consideration toward stacking things in such a way that if something were to be lost, it would do the least possible damage to the environment? Are you aware of any considerations, any discussions, any findings or recommendations on that?

[Kathleen Fox]

Go ahead, Cliff.

[Clifford Harvey]

Thank you, Ms. Fox.

In regard to the stowage on board, there are international regulations and codes with best practices and laws that govern that. It is covered in SOLAS, or the safety of life at sea convention. Chapter VI of SOLAS refers to the securement of cargo on board. There is also an international code for safe containers, which deals with the construction of containers. The International Maritime Dangerous Goods Code deals with how the dangerous goods are loaded in containers and also with how they are stored on board with the other containers.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

We'll go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses as well. We are always very glad to have their insight.

My questions are more general, so the witnesses should be able to raise issues they feel are more important.

Given the dangerous situations that can arise involving ships, containers and crews, do you think the Canadian Coast Guard and Fisheries and Oceans Canada have sufficient physical and human resources to respond to an emergency such as a marine spill?

Do you think they have everything they need to respond in emergencies? Are there things that need improving?

[Kathleen Fox]

I don't want to speak for the Canadian Coast Guard or Fisheries and Oceans Canada. From our experience in conducting other investigations—including the one into the sinking of the Nathan E. Stewart—we found that the response was quite timely but that there was some confusion around the role of the centralized command system.

We issued findings with respect to risk. For instance, if a coordinated and comprehensive evaluation of the response to an environmental spill is not conducted, there is a risk that shortfalls will go unidentified by the response groups as a whole, resulting in a missed opportunity to improve Canada's spill response regime.

As for the M/V ZIM Kingston cargo container spill, we will be examining the incident, but it's too soon to comment.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you.

Since you brought up communication, I'd like to talk about the lack of free-flowing communication, which can lead to confusion.

Specifically, I'd like to talk about communication in both official languages. Most French-speaking captains have a good understanding of English, but not always. I know captains who don't speak English very well.

Would you say French-speaking captains receive the same communications? Does the information flow as quickly and spontaneously?

[Kathleen Fox]

I don't have enough information on that to answer your question.

I should point out that the crews of most of the foreign vessels entering Canada are made up of people from different countries, so English isn't necessarily their first language.

I'm not sure whether Mr. Harvey has anything more to say about that. He has worked for the Canadian Coast Guard and Transport Canada.

I can't comment, because we don't have enough data to answer the question.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

The Desgagnés fleet operates on the St. Lawrence River, for example, and its crew is French-speaking. The vessels travel all the way up to the far north.

[Kathleen Fox]

Mr. Harvey, do you have any information on that?