Fisheries Committee on April 5th, 2022

[Bob Zimmer, Conservative, Prince George—Peace River—Northern Rockies, BC]

All I would say in finishing is that I know my colleague Mr. Perkins is concerned about marine safety and maybe this makes the case for a longer discussion about what still needs to be done. We care about our anglers and our fishers out there, that they're safe and that they get home at night and return to their families. Maybe, again, we'll talk about that in the future.

Thanks for your testimony today. That's all I have.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Zimmer.

We'll now go to Mr. Kelloway for five minutes or less, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Mr. Chair.

Hello to our witnesses, and hello to colleagues.

I have two questions. One is focused on incorporating indigenous knowledge into response plans and one is around the polluter pays principle. I want to stay on that as I did with the last series of witnesses last week.

We've heard from the Canadian Coast Guard that they benefit tremendously from collaborating and incorporating indigenous knowledge in their unified command centre. I think they said it's an important collaboration. With your expertise, the Transportation Safety Board has investigated many incidents and accidents across Canada and no doubt you've seen how collaborating with indigenous communities can lead to better outcomes.

I'm wondering if you could—and this is for any of you—provide us some other examples where all levels of government, including indigenous governments and communities, worked together to provide the best possible response to a marine cargo incident or any other such incident.

[Kathleen Fox]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I can speak to the incidents. How comprehensive the response was and whether all levels of government were involved may be for others to judge. Certainly, during the loss of the B.C. ferry Queen of the North in 2006, it was the local community in Hartley Bay that played a significant role in recovering and helping to aid the passengers who were able to get off that vessel prior to the sinking. Unfortunately, two souls were lost and presumed drowned.

Then there was the Leviathan II off the coast of Tofino. I may be wrong on the year, but I think it was 2015. That was a whaling vessel that capsized as a result of a severe encounter with a wave. Again, it was the local community that, first of all, identified that the vessel had gone down and then went out and recovered many of the passengers and crew who had ended up in the water.

Then, of course, when the Nathan E. Stewart went down, spilling 110,000 litres of diesel fuel, the local community of the Heiltsuk First Nation went out and helped with the environmental response.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks, Ms. Fox.

Do any other of the witnesses want to add to that? I'm going to take the silence as a no.

My second question is around the polluter pays principle. I asked a couple of questions in the last block of witnesses last week. We've heard from witnesses that under the Wrecked, Abandoned or Hazardous Vessels Act and the Marine Liability Act, the polluter is liable for losses or damages caused by pollution from a ship.

I'm wondering if you could provide this committee with any further recommendations on how these pieces of legislation, in your view, could protect Canadians from incurring the costs associated with environmental incidents.

[Kathleen Fox]

I'm going to ask Mr. Harvey to address that.

I will say that we use the word “recommendation” very carefully because it's a board recommendation, and I'm certainly not in a position to make any recommendations with respect to that.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Perhaps you have some suggestions.

[Kathleen Fox]

Again, I will wait to see what comes out of this particular investigation.

[Clifford Harvey]

Thank you, Ms. Fox, and thank you, Mr. Chair.

I don't really have anything to add beyond, as mentioned, the polluter pays principle. I know there are international conventions governing the recovery or the response to pollution as well, and they're incorporated into Canadian law and responded to by the federal departments responsible.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Okay. I think I have about 40 seconds left. I'm going to try it from a different angle.

Could you expand on how this type of legislation not only holds polluters accountable but also helps prevent incidents like the Zim Kingston incident from happening again?

[Kathleen Fox]

I think I'll answer that one, Mr. Chair.

The role that Parliament has carved out for us is very clear. It's to investigate safety, transportation safety and those things that will make marine safety and the other modes better for all. We really limit ourselves to those sorts of discussions, as opposed to commenting on other legislation that is beyond our jurisdiction, our mandate or our expertise.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Kelloway.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I had some questions about the accident that occurred off the western bank of the St. Lawrence River. Clearly, it's a large waterway that is deeply affected by the eddies originating from the estuary. Many ships need to be guided by pilots because some spots are obviously dangerous, especially around where I live, Île‑aux‑Coudres, in Charlevoix. The passage is very difficult for outside vessels that are not familiar with the sea there. My grandfather was a schooner captain, and he knew the river like the back of his hand, unlike the crews of foreign ships. What worries me is that the accident that occurred out west could happen to us as well.

Do you know how many incidents and accidents have occurred in recent years between the Gulf of St. Lawrence and Quebec City, for example?

Have you documented any major incidents?

[Kathleen Fox]

Mr. Harvey, can you take that, please?

[Clifford Harvey]

Mr. Chair, I'm trying to think about incidents where we would have discussed the shipping currents in the St. Lawrence. I know that the Transportation Safety Board undertook an extensive class 1 investigation into pilotage issues in 1995. A lot of those recommendations were addressed since that time; however, the use of pilots on international vessels sailing into the St. Lawrence continues as well. We continue to look at cases where bridge resource management between the pilots and the ship's crew on board is undertaken in a way that communicates the intentions of the pilot and the vessel's master fluently and together in one, so it's easily understood between both parties.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

Madame Desbiens, there are only about 12 seconds left, so there's hardly time for a question, let alone an answer.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

The thing I'm trying to wrap my head around.... Perhaps, Ms. Fox, you can help to clarify. What I'm hearing from you is that your work is specific to safety, investigating safety. Does that expand to environmental safety? For example, I'm thinking about the debris that's falling into our oceans, the Styrofoam and the toxic substances that are in the ocean and the impacts on our marine environment, and of course on humans as a result. I'm wondering, how black and white is investigating safety? Can you expand on that? Does it include environmental safety issues to our planet and to all those who live on this planet?

[Kathleen Fox]

The short answer, Mr. Chair, is that the mandate that Parliament has given us in the CTAISB Act is to advance transportation safety in the four federally regulated modes of transports: air, rail, marine and pipeline. So no, we don't investigate environmental incidents, except to the extent that they were caused by a transportation occurrence.

Certainly, if a train derails and spills dangerous goods, as was the case in the tragedy in Lac-Mégantic, or if a ship has an occurrence and either, as in this case, loses cargo or, as in other cases, grounds or sinks, then for the environmental consequences of that, we'll document what we know and we'll document the initial response to it in terms of the first 12, 24, 36, 48 hours. But beyond that, in terms of the actual cleanup and so on, that is outside of our mandate, because our mandate is really focused on what happened—

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Okay.

[Kathleen Fox]

—to cause the environmental damage and how the initial response was handled to minimize the consequences to people and property.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Ms. Fox. I'm sorry to interrupt you. I just want to try to get my last question in quickly here.

Is there any work done, through your work, alongside others to ensure that...? I know Mr. Kelloway was speaking a little bit about the polluter's responsibility. The information that you're acquiring through these investigations.... Do you collaborate with others to ensure that polluters are held responsible, with this really important information that is being acquired through your investigations?

[Kathleen Fox]

Again, the short answer is that the TSB cannot attribute blame or determine civil or criminal liability, so we have to stay outside of that realm.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Ms. Barron.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our witnesses for coming out today to take part in this very important study.

It's well known that masters on these container vessels are coming under increased commercial pressure and having to operate within very tight schedules, and often their schedule for the ships could be laid out months ahead of time. These ships are travelling in heavy seas sometimes. Do you think the masters are being placed under too much pressure? Could this be one of the reasons why these ships are sailing into heavy weather when they could be holding back in safer quadrants with no storms?

Maybe Mr. Harvey could respond.