Fisheries Committee on April 13th, 2022

[Timothy Sargent]

Across all of what we do, we certainly see the impacts of climate change on both coasts. We see species often moving north to some extent, although that's not true everywhere. We have seen significant changes in the gulf, for instance.

I'm just going to turn to Tony for capelin itself.

Can you talk about the trends in that stock?

[Tony Blanchard]

I'm not sure we'd call them trends, but there is some variability over the years of the size of capelin when it's mature and taken into fishery.

We don't know exactly what is causing that. We don't know what environmental conditions, exactly.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

Chair, how much time do I have left? Have I used it up already?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You have about 16 seconds. It's hardly enough time to get a question and an answer in. I think we'll probably cut it off there.

[Francesco Sorbara, Liberal, Vaughan—Woodbridge, ON]

I would concur with that, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, everyone. It's great to see everyone today.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair. Two and a half minutes really isn't much time.

First, I'd like to point out two things. Everything I'm hearing is making me shake my head, because the capelin have been rolling in for two days. I'm sorry, we're talking about ice and all that, when the capelin have been rolling in for two days. For the past two days, our fishers have been losing money, which puts the very existence of their fishery in jeopardy next year. I wanted to set that straight.

Second, the fishers have written two letters to the minister and the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. This is very important. She says she hasn't heard from anyone, but we sent a big folder three times, in which scientists and experts from all over Quebec confirmed to us that the DNA of the St. Lawrence capelin is not in any way connected to the Newfoundland and Labrador capelin.

I'm fuming here.

I'd like to know if you can promise us that our fishers will be invited to the consultations next April.

I'd like you to confirm that you are absolutely certain that the capelin rolling in and dying on our shores shore right now are altering the critical mass of resources in the St. Lawrence at this very moment.

[Timothy Sargent]

First, if I understand correctly, will the two individuals be invited to the advisory committee? Absolutely yes, they will. I think we have the contact details, but we would invite them as a matter of course.

As to what's actually going on, I'm here in Ottawa, so if someone is standing on the shore and looking at capelin, I'm not going to say that person is necessarily wrong. I see the ice conditions. I know that this is a regular ice year.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I'm on Isle‑aux‑Coudres and I can see the capelin.

You will understand, Mr. Chair, that I'm a little out of sorts, because it breaks my heart. We're going to witness the disappearance of two fishing techniques that are indigenous legacies—I would like to emphasize that—and that have nothing to do with the techniques used off Newfoundland and Labrador, which we've been talking about for the last hour and a half. You have to understand what weir fishing is. They catch the capelin that are coming ashore to die anyway. I don't know what else to say. I am really beside myself.

Are you able to explain why, when we've known about the problem for a year—

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

That's well over the two and a half minutes allotted.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for two and a half minutes, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

To clarify, is it expected that I'll have two rounds of questions before the end of the meeting or just one remaining?

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You should get another slot after this one, if everybody finishes on time and we can stay on schedule.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Great, I do have a few further questions.

If it's okay with you, Chair, I'd like to offer my two and a half minute slot we're currently in to Madame Desbiens so that she can finish what she was trying to say, if she would like it.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

We'll go over to you, Madame Desbiens.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Ms. Barron, you just made me smile again. Thank you so much.

Mr. Sargent or Mr. Vézina, do you think it's possible to assess the weir fishing exercise separately from other activities in the area, to make sure we're comparing apples to apples?

[Timothy Sargent]

When we do our assessments, we are very conscious of the difference between the weir fishery and the other two fisheries that are out there, as we are of the 4ST fishery and the 4R fishery. It's one stock, so the science that we do is on that stock. It informs the fisheries management, but that fishery's management approach is sensitive to the different realities and the different kind of gear that is being used in these different regions. That is why the openings can be different.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

If I understand correctly, you therefore understand that we're not threatening a viable resource, which will continue to feed the mass of predators swimming in the St. Lawrence.

I'd now like to draw your attention to a document that I sent to everyone. It's a plate of female capelin, vacuum packed, from Ontario. We don't know when this was caught, because we don't have the right to catch capelin yet, but we assume it was caught last year. This was packaged in Thailand before being sold and purchased at a counter in Charlevoix. So suppliers got it wherever they could, they ordered some and they saw it arrive from Thailand.

Have you seen this? It's making quite a splash on my Facebook page.

[Timothy Sargent]

I haven't seen the document that the member is referring to, but I'm more than happy to see it.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

I'm speechless, and the colour is a disaster.

When she spoke in Boston, Madam Minister reiterated what was written in her mandate letter, that she wants to foster local sales and development and limit transportation.

I'd like to know what you intend to do here. I would actually hope that you will encourage the minister to think more about how this fishery is looming so that people won't eat capelin from Thailand sold in Charlevoix.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You've gone way over your time, Madame Desbiens.

If the officials have an answer to that particular statement, they can provide it to the committee. We'd appreciate that.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for five minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question for Mr. Sargent is about something he said earlier. He mentioned that capelin aren't a significant food source for seals.

I think your own department is estimating that seals consume between one million and 1.5 million tonnes of capelin per year, and that's just harp seals alone. We know that the Gulf of St. Lawrence is also full of grey seals.

Do you have any idea of what percentage of the harp seal herd resides in the Gulf of St. Lawrence?

[Timothy Sargent]

I don't know, Sylvain, if you have that at hand.

[Sylvain Vézina]

I'm sorry, but I don't have this information with me.

[Timothy Sargent]

We can get you our best estimate, Mr. Chair.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Would we say one-third of the harp seal herd exists in the Gulf of St. Lawrence for seven or eight months of the year? I think that might be accurate. In that case, you're talking about half a million tonnes of capelin being consumed by harp seals alone in the Gulf of St. Lawrence.

Would you dispute that figure, Mr. Sargent?