Fisheries Committee on Oct. 25th, 2022

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Has there been a response?

[Jean Côté]

I think the minister has done what she could. It's not enough yet. We have to be more clear [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Mr. Côté, could you repeat that answer? You froze up for a few seconds and part of your answer wasn't audible.

[Jean Côté]

I was saying that DFO did answer, but I think the answer is not strong enough yet, especially [Technical difficulty—Editor] is going through media right now and there's not enough information about the real facts, that we are doing [Technical difficulty—Editor].

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You froze up again, Mr. Côté. For that answer, if you could provide it to the committee in writing, that would be great.

I will ask Mr. Small if he has questions for another witness. It seems you're having a bit of connection trouble there.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I do have a question for Mr. Mallet. How many pots would they have on...? I know in the Maritimes sometimes it's referred to as a trawl. In Newfoundland we call it a fleet. How many pots would be coming up on one vertical rope? Are there multiple or are they using single pots in this region?

[Martin Mallet]

Is that in the U.S. or here in Canada?

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I'm asking about your area and the fishermen you represent.

[Martin Mallet]

We represent fishermen in many areas in Nova Scotia and New Brunswick, and it depends, I would say, on the LFA. The standard would be between six pots per line, but there are two double lines and one line on each end. That's the maximum we're seeing in some of our areas. In some areas, we have some single traps per line as well.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Is that for crab or lobster?

[Martin Mallet]

That's for lobster. For snow crab, it's typically one pot per line.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I know that in Newfoundland and Labrador, it's completely about fleets, with anywhere from 40 to 70, so the number of vertical lines is dramatically reduced.

Would it be an option to use a Japanese-style crab pot to mitigate the risk to right whales? You're going to take a lot of vertical lines out of the water if you don't fish with single pots.

[Martin Mallet]

These are the smaller snow crab pots. I think that's what you're alluding to. With our science team at MFU, we've done some trials in the past few years, and they are ongoing. We've tried to work with multiple pots per line for the snow crab fishery. We have some limits in terms of how many we can use, because we use smaller boats than the midshore fleet. We typically use 45-foot lobster boats for our snow crab fishery.

Mathieu, I don't know if you want to add something to that, but that's basically where we're at.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

They use a similar sized boat in Newfoundland and stack 300 pots on it when they leave to go out.

If you had a fishery closure for a couple of weeks because of right whale sightings, what would the approximate cost be in one of your areas?

[Martin Mallet]

For lobster, it would be disastrous if we were forced to take all of our traps out of the water for two weeks.

We mentioned the shallow water protocol, which seems to be working very well. There have been a few instances in the Magdalen Islands where the shallow water protocol pushed fishermen closer to shore—within 10 fathoms—so they could continue fishing as normal. However, as my colleague Jean Côté mentioned, back in 2018, we did not have that protocol and they had to live through such an event.

For snow crab, we have to move around. As soon as these zones are closed, our fishermen are obligated, within a few days, to take all of their pots out of that area and move to an open area, which in itself is extremely difficult operationally. It increases the cost of operation probably twofold, and at the end of the day there are risks to our fishermen's safety at sea as well, as they are forced sometimes to go in very nasty seas to do these operations.

It's difficult to put a price on it cost-wise, but for two weeks, depending on the number of fishermen, you can easily go into a few million dollars' worth of lost revenues.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

I let you go over a small bit there because we had connection problems and so you wouldn't have the opportunity to complain about your time.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less, please.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would like to thank all the witnesses for being with us.

Mr. Mallet, I am going to start with you.

I think you said at the beginning of your presentation: we have come a long way since 2017. That was a situation that was virtually unknown in the industry. What we have done is truly extraordinary, if we compare our measures to those in the United States. According to several witnesses who have appeared before our committee in recent weeks, our measures exceed those in the United States.

Mr. Mallet, since you also have expertise in biology, I am going to ask you the following questions.

Do you think, on the question of temporary and seasonal closures, it is possible to modify these closures, given that the whales will move around to feed, whether we like it or not?

In your opinion, in 2022, five years later, do we have a better understanding of the situation?

Can we modify these measures to let everyone catch their breath?

We know the closures are hard. Even if we say that the quotas were all reached and the fishing season was still profitable, it is unbelievably stressful for the industry, the fishers, the processors, the plant workers, and the communities.

Do you think it is possible to modify these measures without there being harmful effects on whale protection?

[Martin Mallet]

I am going to answer part of the question and then turn the mic over to my colleague, Mr. Noël.

Yes, of course, as a biologist, I can confirm that since 2017 alone, we have learned a lot about whale behaviour. We now know that when they are in a feeding phase, they tend to congregate in a region where food is plentiful. Given that, we should maybe prioritize those areas, when it comes to closures.

I think it was Mr. Haché who said earlier that when the whales were really in transit and looking for food, we should maybe be cautious in considering the idea of closing fishing areas for the entire season.

I don't know whether Mr. Noël wants to add something.

[Mathieu Noël, Director, Opilio, Maritime Fishermen's Union]

As the saying goes, the devil is in the details. Given the measures that are in effect, we have to work on optimizing and take a broad view in order to see what we can do to improve the situation.

Each rectangle that is closed during the fishing season is very important. Sometimes, we look at the map and think the gulf is big and there are lots of places where people could move to, but when we really see what fishing grounds are active and productive, we realize that it is fairly limited.

Each rectangle is important. I think there is certainly a way to modify the measures to reach a solution that is more effective for everyone.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Very good. I would like to ask two or there more questions.

We have heard a lot about low breaking-strength rope. Do you think we are prepared for that or will we again be adopting a method that will instead be disastrous?

I am thinking about the fact that the Species at Risk Act is in force. People want to protect these mammals, these whales, but they want to put measures in place that are maybe going to put these species at more risk.

Are we prepared to adopt low breaking-strength ropes or should we wait a bit?

[Martin Mallet]

I think we are not entirely ready. Take the example of depth limits that we managed to put in place a few years ago. There is an entire process of peer review through DFO's review system. I am talking about the Canadian Science Advisory Secretariat, the CSAS.

In this case, I think we should go a bit further on the science. We must never forget that this entire controversy about weak links arises out of a study conducted in the United States. A careful reading of that study, whether about the gear, the methods or the protocol, leads me to doubt its conclusions. In my opinion, we should study the reason why there is a maximum of 1,700 pounds for the ropes a bit more closely.

What we notice in the study is that one of the reasons why no lower-resistance ropes are found on the dead whales was that it is not common, for fishing, to use ropes with resistance lower than 1,700 pounds. They are not used in regular operations. For questions like that, it is really worth studying the details and then looking at the operations at sea. We have to see whether, for starters, these new methods are safe for our fishers. We also have to make sure we are not going to create an ecological disaster. I am thinking about ghost gear and, possibly, more whale entanglements.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Earlier, Mr. Côté was asked a question about the markets. I do not know whether he clearly understood the question in the context of the Canada–United States–Mexico Agreement. I would like to point out that it has nothing to do with right whale protection, nor do I think it affects our markets. The crux of the issue, however, is our markets in the United States. As you know, we depend on them when it comes to lobster and crab.

There is everything we have right in front of us, in particular the Marine Mammal Protection Act and the measures that the United States is trying to impose on us. As we now know, the issue goes beyond all these measures.

In your opinion, how can we communicate that to the United States?

Do you think we are doing enough to make our measures known, and why should we be exempted in order to protect these markets?

[Martin Mallet]

On the subject of communications, I think that in the case of this issue, we need to have a full-time strategy. As soon as there is an attack on the Canadian industry, whether it be snow crab or lobster, a team should be ready to respond quickly, based on facts, obviously. In my presentation, I did mention that there is a positive story to tell here in Canada, about everything we have done.

Regarding the results, 2017 was obviously a disastrous year for the whales, but since that time, all the conservation and protection measures we have taken have had a significant impact, and we have to talk about that.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thanks, Mr. Cormier.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.