Fisheries Committee on Nov. 4th, 2022

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'm sorry, Mr. Cormier, but your time is up exactly.

We're going to finish off this session now, this first hour. I want to say thank you to all three witnesses, Mr. Pardo, Mr. Robert and Ms. Schleit, for sharing their knowledge with us here today.

We'll suspend for a couple of moments to switch out panels and get started on our second hour.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of our new witnesses.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mike, and please mute yourself when you're not speaking.

There is interpretation for those on Zoom. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of “floor”, “English” or “French”. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

I remind everyone that all comments should be addressed through the chair.

I would now like to welcome our witnesses. Representing the FFAW—Fish, Food and Allied Workers—Unifor is Mr. Keith Sullivan, president, on Zoom. Representing the Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie is Ghislain Collin, president, and Lauréat Lelièvre, commercial fisherman. Representing Inverness South Fishermen's Association is Mr. Jordan MacDougall, commercial fisherman.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You will each have up to five minutes for an opening statement.

I will invite Mr. Sullivan to start us off for five minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.

[Keith Sullivan, President, Fish, Food and Allied Workers - Unifor]

Thank you. I hope you're hearing me well.

On behalf of our 13,000 members in Newfoundland and Labrador, thank you for the opportunity today. It's an important topic.

The Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union represents inshore fish harvesters in our province. That's 3,000 enterprise owners and probably 7,000 crew members, and we also have those who work in fish processing.

Mackerel are a primary pelagic species harvested in Newfoundland and Labrador. It is an important commercial species with historically very extensive landings. As it is a transboundary stock with the United States, FFAW has lobbied for over half a decade with other industry members on the issue of the changing migration patterns, poor overall coverage of the science survey and the changing fishing patterns to look into science more substantially.

On March 30, 2022, DFO announced a moratorium on the commercial mackerel fishery in Newfoundland and Labrador, despite the fact that harvesters see very positive signs of growth in this stock. Harvesters did not expect this closure, especially without a commitment to increasing stock assessment surveys. For years, harvesters have suggested that DFO science is significantly underestimating the biomass of mackerel and have proposed science projects that would demonstrate what they have observed at sea, but no recommendations to work collaboratively to address this incomplete science have really been pursued.

Mismanagement of the stock has been an ongoing issue for fish harvesters in this province for years. DFO science does not have sufficient data on substantial recreational fisheries, which remain open while commercial fisheries are closed, nor on the impacts of removals of the northern contingent, or Canadian mackerel, in U.S. waters.

While the American catch was reduced in the past year, they've had a commercial fishery this year and a recreational fishery for mackerel carried on, while people were thrown out of work who depend on the resource.

FFAW has repeatedly called on DFO science to revise its approach to mackerel science so the true understanding of the size and migration of stock can be understood. Unfortunately, harvesters' experience and knowledge have been dismissed for over a decade, and as a direct result our industry has faced significant financial loss.

The closure of the mackerel fishery this year was met with widespread disappointment, as harvesters had experienced increases in catch levels compared to previous years. Since 2016, stakeholders have stated that the science is underestimating the biomass and that valuable observations from harvesters continue to be ignored in decisions. These observations indicate that mackerel are spawning in areas that are further east than current surveys that we know are in the southern gulf right now.

Expanding knowledge of Atlantic mackerel spawning behaviour is critical. The current DFO approach to assessing the size of mackerel stocks involves the survey in the southern gulf, far from other areas where people are observing signs of growth in the mackerel resource.

Mackerel harvesters have seen quite an abundance despite the declines in stock assessments. Questions regarding additional mackerel spawning sites outside the southern gulf have been repeatedly raised. Not only have harvesters seen an abundance of mackerel during the timing of the mackerel fishery, but harvesters in the southern area of Newfoundland and Labrador have seen them on the St. Pierre Bank as well.

FFAW has proposed science that would include approved sampling and data from the province, including collection over an extended time from all regions. We've had adult mackerel collected from 3Ps in June and July in 2021 by long-time fish harvester Keith Bath. Mr. Bath reported that the adult mackerel were increasingly more common in the Bank area in July, whereas in previous years they were getting mackerel in their nets in May.

Finally, harvesters all around the province, whether it's the northeast coast or southwest coast or Fortune Bay, reported seeing these very small mackerel in turr stomachs while hunting birds, for example.

Taken together, these observations suggest that mackerel are distributed in Newfoundland and Labrador waters throughout their life cycle.

At the advisory meeting last year, FFAW representatives presented ample evidence of a strong Atlantic mackerel stock and called on DFO science to revise its approach to mackerel science so that a true understanding of the size and migration of the stock can be understood. The department advised of a commercial closure in 2022.

Our interest and commitment to mackerel research goes beyond sample collection. FFAW has applied for funding to do otolith microchemistry research with DFO science and academic researchers to determine maturity. We've also done our own studies this year with FFAW fishermen, who are paying to do their own work because the department wouldn't commission it.

Our recommendation is that DFO immediately invest in expanding their mackerel science and consult with harvesters in developing this work.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Sullivan.

We'll now go to Mr. MacDougall for five minutes or less, please.

[Jordan MacDougall, Commercial Fisherman, Inverness South Fishermen’s Asssociation]

Good day.

I'm a commercial fisherman in Inverness South Fishermen's Association. I fish off the western coast of Cape Breton. I fish lobster, tuna, mackerel and crab.

About 15 years ago, a large body of fish would come through here and the fishers could make a partial living from this resource. Now that body of fish is no longer here. What we're finding with the biomass here is that it's small. The fishermen can't seem to get a large fish anymore, even for tuna fishing during the summer and the fall, compared to 15 years ago.

We weren't surprised to see something happen with the mackerel, but we don't know if the big body of fish has moved north—if there is a bigger body—and if it's because of water temperature. Our water is getting warmer here.

We have a large body of small mackerel here, so the future looks good.

I would like to see more science, of course, with the mackerel. The problem we worry about when they have a total closure like this is the reopening and when that will happen, what will happen and how the resource will be divided up then.

Those are our main concerns here.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to a joint statement by Mr. Collin and Mr. Lelièvre for five minutes or less, please.

[Ghislain Collin, President, Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du Sud de la Gaspésie]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, good afternoon.

The Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du Sud de la Gaspésie represents 23 members who have been fishing for a long time and who were hit hard by the closure of the fishery in the spring, which occurred with less than 48 hours' notice. Five of them were affected even more because of their age.

The members I represent fish for mackerel by hand or with electric systems on lines that can carry a maximum of 200 hooks. It is therefore a very selective fishery, sustainable and respectful of the environment and the marine fauna.

The logbook and the call-in are imposed by the Department of Fisheries and Oceans exclusively on Quebec fishermen and seiners. Despite our representations to the Atlantic Mackerel Advisory Committee, in Halifax, where we asked that the same quick and simple controls be imposed on other provinces to provide valuable data, our requests to preserve the resource have been unsuccessful. We have heard nothing.

Given that we have followed guidelines for years and have done everything in our power to preserve the resource, we are now asking for emergency financial compensation for the costs incurred prior to the suspension of the fishery and for the loss of income that resulted from our lost fishing season. In addition, we want to be part of the discussions and meetings concerning mackerel. We also ask that access be facilitated to other abundant and lucrative species in order to overcome this crisis without asking for help and public funds for the next years.

In addition, we call for sentinel and scientific fisheries for the next few years, as well as exploratory fisheries for other emerging species, to diversify the portfolio of licences, thereby contributing to the profitability of the companies while reducing the pressure on species in need of recovery.

Finally, we call for two separate quotas upon recovery of the species, one for the hook and line fishery and one for the Atlantic dredge fishery.

In conclusion, the Regroupement does not dispute the science. We believe in the work of the scientists and we want the recovery of the resource through selective and sustainable fisheries. The Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du Sud de la Gaspésie deserves to be supported by the government.

Thank you.

[Lauréat Lelièvre, Commercial Fisherman, Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du Sud de la Gaspésie]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, good afternoon.

As I only have a little over two minutes to paint a picture of eight months of frustration, I'll get straight to the point.

March 30, 2022, is a day that will be etched in my memory for the rest of my life, and not for the right reasons. With less than 48 hours' notice, and under the pretext that urgent action was necessary to regenerate the stocks, the mackerel and spring herring fisheries were suspended in my home region of the Gaspé Peninsula. With a snap of the fingers, about twenty fellow fishers and I found ourselves without income and without any commercial activity. Such a decision hurts. Months of work and preparation, as well as several tens of thousands of dollars of investment in our boats, have become useless.

This is where the darker part of the story begins, because what really affected us was learning that no compensation package had been prepared for us. We were left to our own devices.

Let me be clear: I am not questioning the decision to suspend fishing to regenerate the stocks, let alone the expertise of the scientists. They are doing their job and I respect that. What I am questioning is the way the federal government went about announcing it to us, when the boats were already in the water.

We are a G7 country that is supposed to provide a decent social safety net and leave no one behind. Why do we have to stand here in Ottawa eight months after the suspension of the fishery to explain to you how that sudden decision brought us to our knees? Why was there nothing ready to support us during this suspension?

We are now in November and we still have no indication, no support program, nothing at all. What we are asking for, beyond financial compensation, is predictable fisheries. To leave a whole community in uncertainty for more than eight months is inhumane.

I'm counting on you, members of the committee, to take this message to your caucuses.

Thank you for listening.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you for that.

We'll go to our round of questions.

We'll go to Mr. Small first for six minutes or less, please.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I have a question for Mr. Sullivan.

Based on this summer's experience on all coasts of the island of Newfoundland and up the shoreline of Labrador, what have your members witnessed in terms of an abundance of mackerel? Are you aware of any bycatch that may have happened?

[Keith Sullivan]

The number of mackerel observations that have been confirmed has been really overwhelming. You know, people have been fishing for 40 or 50 years and have never seen anything like it. I'll kind of preface this with people who are not mackerel harvesters themselves, so it's not self-fulfilling or self-promoting; it's just that we've never seen mackerel before like this. It's broadly distributed—broad-sized distributions—so at the same time, it's off the coast of Labrador and down off the northeast coast of Newfoundland, in the bays, in the south off the southwest coast. It's everywhere at the same time. It's certainly never been seen before, and it clearly indicates that there is a disconnect between what science is showing....

You also asked about the bycatch. I should say that catching these mackerel in fisheries that are designed to catch seven-pound codfish is a regular occurrence that people are passing along and getting samples from. It's really abnormal, and it's something that people have never seen before.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

This is something that's kind of abnormal, too. This is a picture that was sent to me by one of your members in Notre Dame Bay, about 600 miles from the coast of Nova Scotia and in the gulf. Where should a mackerel of that size be in August?

[Keith Sullivan]

Well, you know, I don't claim to be a mackerel scientist or involved in that too much, but the point is that that mackerel wouldn't have been born in the gulf, for example. It's coming from the northeast coast. It wouldn't swim very far, a mackerel of that size. We're seeing more and more of that, massive amounts of what you call “pencil mackerel”, which were born somewhere in Newfoundland waters off the east coast somewhere and not in the southern gulf. That's why we're saying that we need to do more science to really get the true picture of what's happening with this stock.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Have you impressed upon the DFO the need to engage harvesters in a more meaningful way because of accounts of the kind I just showed you right there, anomalies and things that have never been seen before? Is the DFO acknowledging that mackerel migrations can be changing, or is it in denial about that?

[Keith Sullivan]

Well, it's hard to be black and white about it, but it's been frustrating, and it's not just this year. As I said, we've been a decade pointing out the big disconnect, that things are not matching up with the observations, but so far there has not been a lot done. There was one study done far north off White Bay and Green Bay, but the water was probably too cold, and I think Dr. Robert mentioned that.

There was one piece of work, but I mean, you don't.... When you're talking about throwing people out of work and their livelihoods and they're not able to make any money.... I mean, I've never seen.... I think it's really shirking the responsibility that they have to people, and that's why it's so upsetting. I guess if I come across as angry about the lack of acknowledgement of the information from harvesters during this conversation, it's because I am, quite frankly, really upset that we're not doing more work to demonstrate what's going on with this fish stock.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

You referenced a fisherman, Keith Bath, who caught mackerel on the St. Pierre Bank in May or June when they should have been closer to the coasts of Nova Scotia and P.E.I., I guess, where they should be spawning. What kind of distance are we talking about from where the egg survey normally takes place to where those mackerel possibly could be spawning?

[Keith Sullivan]

Obviously that is hundreds of miles away. It's quite the distance from where you'd expect them to be spawning. The thing about it is we're seeing more of them. This was an example of a bycatch in a fishery where you wouldn't see mackerel, where you're hauling nets for larger groundfish species.

The number of them there was substantial as well. This is what really needs to be investigated further. We've been talking about this for some time and collecting these samples, repeatedly sending them to DFO, offering proposals to do microchemistry to demonstrate where the mackerel have spent their lives. Still, rather than do that, it seems the decision was made just to throw people out of work and shut things down. That's why it's disappointing.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small. Your six minutes are up exactly, sir.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for six minutes or less.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Collin and Mr. Lelièvre, greetings from my office. I know you're in Ottawa right now, but we have the Baie des Chaleurs in common.

You are talking to a fisherman's son. My father was a fisherman all his life. He fished almost every species: lobster, herring, mackerel, crab. I am very familiar with the concerns and challenges you are going through right now.

My first question for both of you is this: are you two fishermen strictly dependent on the herring and mackerel fishery, or do you do other kinds of fishing?

[Lauréat Lelièvre]

In 2021, I had a small crab quota of 12,000 pounds.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Was it snow crab?

[Lauréat Lelièvre]

Yes, it was snow crab. I sold that licence, because I wanted to do only mackerel fishing. So I applied in January and on March 30 I sold my crab licence, the same day the mackerel fishery was closed. I was left with nothing.

If I had been warned in January, three months in advance, I might still be a crabber and would have kept an income.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

So you sold your licence.

[Lauréat Lelièvre]

I sold it the same day the mackerel fishery was closed.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

As for you, Mr. Collin, what kind of fishing do you do?