Evidence of meeting #40 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fishery.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Yes, we say at least 7°C, and that the maximum is about 14°C. That's about the maximum range. I think perhaps the values that you gave are probably peak optimal temperatures.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
That's the peak time.
In the last 10 years the average temperature in which DFO has gone out, from the study and work that my team has done, is about 8°C. Sometimes they go out as early as June 6 when the water is even colder than that.
I understand DFO goes to the same spot in the gulf every year when they do sampling, on slightly different days. If you're sampling spawning biomass when the water is much colder, if you're going out too early, what's the result of the study?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Exactly. Yes, timing is important. The reason the survey goes on from mid-June to late June—it's about a two-week survey—is that this is the time when, on average, most of the spawners are in the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence. In some years, because of an anomaly with the survey—for example, the vessel is not able to get there on time because of a breakdown or something like that—it is not considered in the time series as an abundance survey, so it is discarded.
The way that we are able to correct for the interannual differences in the timing is by sampling the females all over the gulf with the help of harvesters and also the scientific samplers of DFO. Those samplers are able to know through the season the proportion, the ratio, of females that have spawned versus those that have not spawned yet.
Plus—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
I'm sorry, but I appreciate it. I'm just short on time.
We had testimony already today that the migration patterns are changing because of climate change and water change, yet DFO goes to the same spot every time. Is it possible that they are spawning in different areas other than where DFO is searching?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Yes, exactly. We know the mackerel are migrating and following temperature streams, as you mentioned. They are following the 7°C isotherms when they migrate into eastern Canada. In the summer—
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Fishermen have found spawning-sized mackerel in Notre Dame Bay in the northeast of Newfoundland in August. I don't know if you can see the screen. My colleague Clifford Small is holding it up.
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Yes.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
When you're going out early in June into the gulf, I believe you're actually missing large parts of the spawning biomass—or I believe DFO is. Is that possible?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Well, actually, there's always a possibility. Actually, I was part of a sampling team to try to catch larvae in that part of Newfoundland a few years ago. We were not able to catch large amounts of larvae or eggs. There is spawning, and we regularly measure spawning outside the southern Gulf of St. Lawrence, but so far there are always negligible amounts.
Conservative
Rick Perkins Conservative South Shore—St. Margarets, NS
Fishers have been able to find them quite easily in northeast Newfoundland.
I have one last question on mortality. What's the proportion of mortality of those taken by grey seals versus fishing?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
We don't know that. Unfortunately, there has not been a formal study on the natural mortality of mackerel. There is on herring in the Gulf of St. Lawrence, but not on mackerel. That is a point that we could raise here. That data is needed.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Perkins.
We'll now go to Mr. Cormier for five minutes or less to close out this portion.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I am the sixth member of the committee to speak, so obviously quite a few questions have already been answered.
Mr. Robert, I want to talk to you first about the spring herring. As you said, you've done some studies on it. Where did the statistics come from that led you to the conclusion that it's imperative to close this fishery? Did they come from Fisheries and Oceans Canada, or did you compile them yourself in collaboration with other groups?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
It's the measure of abundance that's key here, and the data on that comes from Fisheries and Oceans Canada. Individual researchers like myself do more of a large-scale survey.
Once I get the data from the department, I evaluate it with a group of university researchers and government scientists, we come to a consensus on the quality of the data and that's how we move forward.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I see.
In your opinion, the imposition of a moratorium on the spring herring fishery was the right decision to make, wasn't it?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
Yes, that's right. The abundance had become too low to allow a return of the stock.
November 4th, 2022 / 1:50 p.m.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Very well.
Let's compare the spring herring fishery to the fall herring fishery. Do you think the autumn one is in the same critical situation as the spring one?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
No. The state of the autumn herring stock is better than the spring herring. The trend is similar for several other fall stocks compared to spring stocks in the Northwest Atlantic.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
I would like you to explain to the members of the committee why you think the fall herring stock is in better shape than the spring stock.
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
It's a bit of the same issue as mackerel, currently. The data shows a mismatch between the stocks and their prey. In the past, prey for young fish was more concentrated in the spring, when conditions are cold. When conditions are warm, fall herring benefit most from the overlap with prey.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
With regard to mackerel, you said something super interesting earlier. By the way, this is a subject I know a little bit about. According to you, the mackerel stock seems to be migrating from Canadian waters to the United States and both countries seem to be fishing the same stock.
However, in Canada, we have closed the mackerel fishery, unlike the U.S. Don't you think it will be extremely difficult to increase the mackerel stock in the coming years if the Americans can continue to fish this fish, unlike us?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
The mackerel that are in the Gulf of St. Lawrence and Atlantic Canada later in the summer migrate to American coastal waters to overwinter. There is a winter fishery in the United States, but the quotas have been greatly reduced, as was mentioned earlier. However, the fishery is still open there, to my knowledge.
So this is a big problem, indeed, which requires concerted action with the U.S. to ensure the return of this stock. If the United States dips into the stockpile when we stop dipping, we won't make it.
Liberal
Serge Cormier Liberal Acadie—Bathurst, NB
Fishers often tell us that they see a lot of mackerel and herring. That's true, but as you were saying, the size of these fish is so small that they don't have a chance to become mature enough and reproduce. Is that right?
Professor and Canada Research Chair in Fisheries Ecology, Institut des sciences de la mer, Université du Québec à Rimouski, As an Individual
In fact, there are two things to consider. Firstly, the fish are schooling, even when there are not many of them. So you always see them somewhere at some point, even if there are fewer than before.
Secondly, the fish today are very small. You don't see big mackerel anymore, or very few, which is really another sign that the stock is dying.