Fisheries Committee on Nov. 15th, 2022

[Todd Williams]

It might be too early to speculate if this is a similar situation. As I noted in my opening remarks, mackerel is quite a bit different from groundfish, and we are hopeful that it can rebuild if given the time and with the proper measures in place.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Again, in some of the earlier testimony in these hearings, there's quite a difference between what the DFO says it observes—and we presume that there are observations—versus what the fishers say. The fishers, particularly in the more northerly sections of the Gulf of St. Lawrence, are saying there are lots of fish there.

Of course, fishermen are always going to go to where the fish are, so maybe they are getting a warped view of the actual state of the stocks, or maybe they are just seeing something that the DFO isn't.

What do you think?

[Todd Williams]

I will start and perhaps Jean-Yves Savaria can add.

I think first and foremost we take the input provided to us from harvesters very seriously. We do have the Atlantic mackerel advisory committee process, which is a very formal process, but also throughout the year we meet with the FFAW, and when we met with them just recently, two weeks ago, this very issue came up and we discussed it. We take that into consideration in terms of developing our recommendations to the minister.

Perhaps Jean-Yves can add to that with respect to some of the science collaboration.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I don't know if Mr. Savaria is tuned in.

You're on mute, sir. That much I can tell you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

You're still on mute, sir.

[Jean-Yves Savaria]

I didn't hear the question, because there was no sound. Sorry.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Just briefly, what we heard was that there's quite a difference between the observations of fishers and those of the DFO. The fishers are telling us there's lots of fish, particularly in the more northern areas of the Gulf of St. Lawrence. The DFO doesn't observe that.

What's going on? Is it that somebody's right and somebody's wrong, or what is it?

[Jean-Yves Savaria]

It's hard to say whether anyone was at fault.

The difference may be related to the fact that it is a migratory species that tends to travel in schools. It's possible to see fairly large schools even when the population within the ecosystem is low. That means that fishers may have seen lots of fish as they group together during numerous migrations.

As for Fisheries and Oceans Canada, and…

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Do you do the stock assessments in the same place every year? Is there an impact, then, from climate change on the shifting populations of these fish?

[Jean-Yves Savaria]

We are in fact always very interested in keeping track of climate changes, by means of monitoring programs.

At the moment, we are sampling eggs found in the southern part of the gulf. As other witnesses have mentioned, we also take samples of fishers' catches. There are various different inputs that can be used to model populations.

We have also established a scientific committee made up of industry representatives to take the various data reported to us into account. Efforts may also be made to sample the population elsewhere, when relevant. That gives us an overall picture and leads to the best scientific advice.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for six minutes or less, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here. We are very grateful.

I'd like to return to the testimony we heard two weeks ago from Mr. Collin and Mr. Lelièvre. The latter is a fisher who was directly affected by this unexpected situation. He was forced to do nothing when his boat was ready to head offshore. For these fishers, this is of course a situation that can't last. They have to reorient their careers or review their living as fishers. And, of course, they want financial compensation.

What will happen if we are unable to restore the resource by 2023 or 2024 and these people can no longer fish? Is there a way of keeping them going?

As Félix Leclerc so often said, it's better to teach people to fish than to give them money. It's an important principle.

Do you have a solution for these people?

The testimony we heard two weeks ago was really very distressing.

[Todd Williams]

Thank you for your question.

Indeed, there are 89 mackerel harvesters who are largely dependent on this fishery, and that's determined by the landings: Basically, 50% or more of their landings are related to that.

It's something that we take very seriously. At this year's advisory committee meeting, I made it very clear to all the members, all the associations and all the participants that we did have all options on the table, including and up to the closure of the commercial and bait fisheries. It was something that we did reiterate, and we certainly tried to ensure that people weren't being caught off guard. I certainly empathize very much with these harvesters.

On the particular question of whether there is assistance, the short answer is that my mandate is as a fisheries manager. I have a number of tools to work with: the sustainable fisheries framework, the precautionary approach, the fish stocks provisions. Unfortunately, nothing in my tool box includes assistance for harvesters in the manner that you described.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Our understanding is that these fishers have nothing to look forward to, even for next year. They told us that they were the only ones to be required to provide an exhaustive measurement of the resource when they fished. These fishers out on the water are invaluable. We heard about that earlier. Now that they are no longer able to measure the resource, what other tools do you have for that?

[Todd Williams]

There are a number of tools. As noted, we do collaborate with industry, and there was some sampling done last year in other fisheries that have faced closures. We have also launched index fisheries. We have an index fishery in redfish and similar fisheries in cod. Those things are possible from my tool box as a fisheries manager, but the situation that presented itself last year was unfortunately that the stock was in such bad shape that we felt that this was the decision that needed to be taken.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

In coming to a decision, do you think a distinction could be made between seine fishing and traditional bait fishing, which is considered sustainable?

That would have given us some tools, through the bait fishers who take appropriate measures, and it would even have considerably limited aggressive fishing of the resource.

Could a distinction have been made between these two types of fishing?

[Todd Williams]

I think there are a number of possibilities that we could have looked at. It is very difficult to manage it in every single case. Certainly, as part of our ongoing consultations with industry, we'd be looking for more ideas and suggestions and advice to take into account and to provide to the minister as advice and recommendations. I wouldn't want to rule anything out, but it was the nature of the stock at that time that led the minister to the decision for complete closure commercially, and for bait.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Do you think there are other important factors affecting the resource, seals for example? Is that a significant factor in your data?

[Todd Williams]

We certainly have information that seal predation for some stocks is the determinant factor in their levels and rebuilding. For mackerel, I might turn to Jean-Yves Savaria. Perhaps he has more information on the seal predation question. We do know they're an opportunistic predator.

[Jean-Yves Savaria]

Yes, absolutely.

I can confirm that seals eat mackerel. Current data would not appear to indicate that it represents a significant portion of mackerel mortality. However, more studies would have to be conducted to confirm this.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

We'll now go to Ms. Barron for six minutes or less, please.

[Lisa Marie Barron, NDP, Nanaimo—Ladysmith, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being here.

I'm trying to put together all of the information that we've heard so far. Ultimately, my goal when I'm listening is to try to figure out what pieces of information are most important and relevant to come forward as recommendations, based on what you and others are saying, for government on how best to move forward in light of the circumstances.

The differences that we're hearing, depending on who we're talking to, on the circumstances we're in can't be denied. I'm trying to understand how that could be. I'm not an expert in this area.

There seems to be a theme, though, on some gaps in communication and in consultation. It seems to be that there's information that's very real in front of one person and real in front of another, but there seem to be gaps in people talking to one another—at least, that's my perception. You can correct me if I'm completely wrong on that.

I'm happy to hear that you'd spoken with FFAW, because this is an organization that came as a witness earlier and attended one of our meetings on this issue. I'm curious to know what came from that meeting, because when FFAW was here, I quoted something from the FFAW magazine because I feel like it so succinctly describes what it is that they're seeing. Dr. Erin Carruthers was talking about the harvesters' observations of mackerel abundance and distribution being so widely different from the observations of DFO. She went on to say that:

a long-term commitment to document the abundance, distribution, extent, timing, and age of mackerel in NL waters is needed. Until we bring more observations and data from NL into the mackerel stock assessment, I do not see how we can reconcile these widely different assessments of the health of the mackerel stock.

Now, I hate to repeat in a setting when we have such limited opportunities, but I feel that it really highlights an issue. I was wondering if you can respond to that quote and let me know your perspective on that, please.

[Todd Williams]

Sure.

I actually might turn to Jean-Yves Savaria for the question with respect to what Newfoundland harvesters were seeing and the assessments that we have in place in that case.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Go ahead, Mr. Savaria.

[Jean-Yves Savaria]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

As I was saying earlier, as part of our scientific committee work, we regularly have discussions with various industry representatives, including people from the Fish, Food and Allied Workers Union, the FFAW. Mr. Williams mentioned that at the outset.

From the scientific point of view, everything indicates that there really is a very serious mackerel stocks problem. In the critical zone, our temporal egg surveys are very low. There has also been a modification in the age structure, indicating overfishing. This modification is associated with periods of large landings.

We also work with our colleagues in the United States, who are also evaluating stocks. Our evaluations of stock trends match.

However, as I mentioned earlier, we want to continue with scientific work in collaboration with various industry associations and to take their observations and their work into consideration to improve our own sampling, as well as provide the best possible advice for departmental decision-making.