Evidence of meeting #46 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was funding.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Chris Henderson  Deputy Commissioner, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Richard Goodyear  Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Annette Gibbons  Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Adam Burns  Acting Assistant Deputy Minister, Fisheries and Harbour Management, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Alexandra Dostal  Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans
Rebecca Reid  Regional Director General, Pacific Region, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 46 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format pursuant to the House order of June 23, 2022, Standing Order 81(5) and the motion adopted by the committee on November 18, 2022.

The committee is studying the supplementary estimates (B), 2022-23, votes 1(b), 5(b) and 10(b) under the Department of Fisheries and Oceans.

In accordance with the committee's routine motion concerning connection tests for witnesses, I am informing the committee that all witnesses have completed the required connection test in advance of the meeting.

First, I would like to welcome back to the committee the Honourable Joyce Murray, Minister of Fisheries, Oceans and the Canadian Coast Guard, who is with us for the first hour of today's meeting.

The honourable minister is joined by the following officials from the Department of Fisheries and Oceans, who will stay with us during the second hour: Annette Gibbons, deputy minister; Alexandra Dostal, assistant deputy minister; Arran McPherson, assistant deputy minister, ecosystems and oceans science, by video conference; Niall O'Dea, senior assistant deputy minister, strategic policy; Richard Goodyear, chief financial officer and assistant deputy minister; Adam Burns, acting assistant deputy minister, fisheries and harbour management; Chris Henderson, deputy commissioner, operations; Rebecca Reid, regional director general, Pacific region, by video conference; and Doug Wentzell, regional director general, maritimes region, by video conference.

Thank you all for taking the time to appear today. Some of you were here a couple of days ago in the committee for an earlier session.

I'll now give the floor to Minister Murray for opening remarks.

You have five minutes or less.

1:05 p.m.

Vancouver Quadra B.C.

Liberal

Joyce Murray LiberalMinister of Fisheries

Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, and thank you very much.

It's a real pleasure to be joining you today, here on the unceded territory of the Algonquin Anishinabe people.

I'm pleased to be here with my department's senior management team, including my deputy minister, Annette Gibbons, and other senior officials from Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

I want to begin by providing members with a brief financial overview of my department's 2022-23 supplementary estimates (B).

In total, Fisheries and Oceans Canada and the Canadian Coast Guard are seeking $453.3 million over and above what was approved in the main estimates. This is composed of $443.4 million in voted appropriations and $9.8 million in statutory appropriations.

There are four main business lines that will receive the bulk of this funding. This includes $194.7 million in re-profiled funding to focus on priorities related to indigenous rights and fisheries. By recognizing the tremendous social, cultural, spiritual and economic importance that fisheries and oceans have for indigenous peoples, and by respecting both inherent and treaty rights, we can help transform Canada's relationship with first nations, Inuit and Métis peoples. Funding from these supplementary estimates will help advance this work and propel us along the path of reconciliation.

Also included in these supplementary estimates is $95.3 million in new funding for phase 2 of the oceans protection plan. This money will be used to expand existing initiatives in new locations and develop new strategies that combat emerging threats to Canada's marine safety system and maritime supply chain. Under OPP renewal, we'll better protect the marine environment, reduce the negative impacts that marine traffic has on aquatic ecosystems, increase indigenous involvement in this work and make our supply chains more resilient, all while supporting Canada's economic growth.

Before I close, you will also note, in your package of material, $70.1 million in re-profiled funding for accommodation measures that will help address concerns raised by indigenous groups potentially impacted by the Trans Mountain expansion project.

I also want to note that these estimates contain $15.3 million to help advance a circular economy for plastics in Canada. Each year, millions of tons of plastic enter the ocean, where it poses a serious threat to marine life, ecosystems and human health. One way to address ocean plastics is through a closed-loop circular economy. This involves retrieving, reusing and recycling plastics already in the ocean, as well as working to prevent more plastic from entering the marine environment in the first place.

For my department, this involves addressing abandoned, lost or otherwise discarded fishing gear, which is one of the most harmful sources of marine plastic litter. In the wake of post-tropical storm Fiona, the work being carried out under the ghost gear program is needed more than ever.

Before closing, I want to mention the Seal Summit that took place in St. John's earlier this month.

During this two-day gathering, I heard from science and fisheries management experts, indigenous people, industry experts and members of the Atlantic seal science task team, as well as members of Parliament. Together we gained a better understanding of the opportunities and challenges related to seals, explored opportunities to expand Canadian seal products into export markets, discussed the importance of the seal harvest to indigenous and coastal communities and shared ideas on how to address data gaps related to seal populations.

Moving forward, I'm committed to working with indigenous partners and industry to maintain existing markets for Canadian seal products, while also supporting the development of innovative new products and expanding access to export markets.

Thank you again for your time, and I look forward to your questions.

1:05 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Minister.

Before I go to Mr. Small, I know you're only here for an hour. I'll leave it up to you to watch the clock for when it's time for you to exit. I won't point out that the hour is up. Whether you stay over or you go right on the mark is up to you.

We'll now go to Mr. Small for the first round of questioning, for six minutes or less, please.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to the minister and officials for gracing us today at this committee.

I'd like to ask the minister this question. A response to a House of Commons Order Paper question in June of this year indicated that from 2019 until now, DFO hired 4,300 new full-time equivalent employees. That's quite an increase. It's 44% in three years. Fish harvesters have not seen a 44% increase in improved service. We've not seen 44% more stock rebuilding plans with all this money being spent. Why?

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

First, there was a great necessity to increase the capacity of DFO and DFO science after some very draconian cuts under a previous government. The Fisheries Act, another very important tool for ensuring conservation and the access to fish that our fish harvesters need and deserve, was also gutted.

Re-creating a fisheries act that has a precautionary principle baked in but also enables us to manage fisheries properly took a couple of years. That's a very important project that's serving us well now.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Of the 4,300 net new jobs in DFO in three years, 1,000 have been in administration, such as finance and HR. That's almost 1,000 on the ocean side of the department, but only 10% of the new jobs were in the actual fisheries management side. I guess this explains why only 21% of stocks in critical classifications have a rebuilding plan, according to the oceans audit in 2021.

Minister, what do you think?

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

One of the key changes is the importance we place on indigenous reconciliation and adhering to UNDRIP principles. That's meant a great deal of attention in everything we do. Fisheries management is very important, but there are many other things that are the responsibility of this department.

Organizing ourselves to put forward the partnerships with indigenous people, undertaking the consultations and finding ways to incorporate indigenous knowledge will serve us well in our results. It will take time and administrative focus to put that foundation in place.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

In 2021, the last year for which data was available, DFO met 40% of its 70 business targets. That's only a 57% success rate.

Should officials receive bonuses for a D-minus score?

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Clearly, any organization always strives to do better. DFO is no exception, so I'm pleased that we have a framework for being accountable. We hold ourselves accountable and we'll always aim to do better.

If there are any additional responses that any of the officials would like to make, I welcome them.

1:10 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

That's okay. Thank you, Minister. We have some time with the officials in the second half.

Getting on to the Auditor General's report that recently came out with regard to national shipbuilding and our Arctic sovereignty, 29 vessels were promised to be delivered through the Canadian Coast Guard. How many of the new vessels have been delivered to date?

1:10 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

We have three icebreakers acquired already and eight still to come. A number of the smaller vessels, some 16, have been made available.

I'll turn it over to Chris Henderson to add to that.

1:15 p.m.

Chris Henderson Deputy Commissioner, Operations, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Thank you, Minister.

Yes, we have three of the new large OFSVs—ocean fishery science vessels—and 16 of the new “bay” class search and rescue lifeboats. We have received three medium icebreakers that were not built in Canada—they're what we call interim measures—and a fourth light icebreaker, so we have four interim measures. Those are three OFSVs and 16 SAR lifeboats, so that's 19.

The Arctic offshore patrol ships are also going to begin construction shortly, and the offshore oceanographic science vessel is currently under construction in Vancouver. We recently had the keel-laying ceremony there two weeks ago.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, when the minister was questioned earlier this year about vessels that conduct trawl surveys, I can't remember, but, Minister, did you say they'd be ready for this fall to conduct surveys or not?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Sorry; could you repeat the question? I didn't understand it.

1:15 p.m.

Conservative

Clifford Small Conservative Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL

When you were questioned earlier this year about whether or not the new vessels to complete trawl surveys for northern cod would be ready to conduct surveys this fall, did you advise us that they would be ready on time or not?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

I think the key thing is that it's very important to have vessels to do the comparative trawling, and we are working to make sure that happens by doing life extensions of the older vessels that we need to do that parallel trawling.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald

Thank you, Mr. Small. We've gone a little bit over.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for six minutes or less, please, as long as his voice lasts.

December 2nd, 2022 / 1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Thank you, Chair.

Minister, this spring when you made the decision to close down the mackerel fishery for conservation purposes, which we agree with, there was concern from Canadian fishers that if the Americans do not follow suit, what Canada does not catch the Americans will catch. Could you give us your opinion on how Canada and the U.S. can better manage this mackerel stock, which is one stock between the two countries?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

Thank you for that question, because it is very important that we coordinate the management of a stock.

We don't support the fact that we had closures because of the stock being in critical condition and that the United States was fishing essentially that same stock.

I had a chance to talk to the head of the NOAA administration—my counterpart, Dr. Spinrad—about this very matter and expressed my concern about it.

This is a relatively new person in the position, because it's someone who's come in under the Biden administration, and he personally wants to take a more scientific approach to protecting and rebuilding this stock. He wants to invoke the precautionary principle, which, in my view, wasn't happening adequately, so we agreed to share our approach to this issue. In two months, there will be meetings between NOAA and DFO to discuss our assessments and build a better approach to rebuilding mackerel.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Bobby Morrissey Liberal Egmont, PE

Thank you, Minister.

Chair, I'll turn my time over to Mr. Hardie.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

I think that was Bobby's Marilyn Monroe impression there. I hope you feel better, Bobby.

Minister, with the supplementary funding that's being asked for, what does that bring your ministry's total budget to?

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Joyce Murray Liberal Vancouver Quadra, BC

I'll go to Richard on that.

1:15 p.m.

Richard Goodyear Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Mr. Chair, that will bring our budget to a total of $4.7 billion.

1:15 p.m.

Liberal

Ken Hardie Liberal Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC

Now, looking at the whole amount and the plans for it, what percentage of that amount will be dedicated to building foundational capacity in the department versus actually out on the water doing oceanography and stock assessments and all the other street-level things, if you like, that DFO is accountable for?

1:20 p.m.

Chief Financial Officer and Assistant Deputy Minister, Department of Fisheries and Oceans

Richard Goodyear

The majority of the funding as outlined in supplementary estimates (B) is related to new funding of $125 million in new funding for oceans protection, as the minister mentioned, and a circular economy for plastics. Then we have transfers or re-profiles from previous years for indigenous reconciliation.

The majority of the funding is dedicated to programs, Mr. Chair.