Fisheries Committee on March 23rd, 2023

[Robert Hardy]

Mr. Small, and committee, I've been in the industry for over 30 years. I worked at the university here for the first nine, and then I went into the industry. I've been involved with four sealing companies throughout my career. I watch what happens within the industry pretty closely, and I haven't seen things change in the past 20 years in terms of market access. I know that industry constantly asks for support from the federal government, because trade is a federal government responsibility, but it has not become any easier to market and to promote products into different countries.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

My next question, Mr. Chair, for Mr. Hardy is this: Is there any aspect of the pinniped that could be used in foreign aid?

[Robert Hardy]

Absolutely. In my opinion, and I speak on it frequently, if we are to take any number of seals, regardless of the species or location in Atlantic Canada or western Canada, then in order to handle the volume, we have to look at food aid—high, nutritionally rich protein powders and meals made from the seal. At the same time, we would recover additional omega-3 oil and we would have other by-products that could be developed. However, in order to access volume, I believe we need to look at a nutritional food-aid program for the nine million people in the world who starve to death every year.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Hardy.

Presently, which countries would we be able to focus on immediately to develop markets for products, so that we can start harvesting the current quota of seals? That would be just in harp seals, would it? I'm not sure, but I think there's a small quota in grey seals, and you might be able to let me know on that. Where could we go right now?

[Robert Hardy]

Well, it would be difficult to say where we could go right now, because there is not a whole lot of market out there. There's not a whole lot of accessibility out there. That's something we have to work on, but it needs to be done; it needs to be addressed. Just like when we talk about the predation part, the market and the access need to be dealt with ASAP.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

We know that we've been banned from the U.S. market since 1972, with the invocation of the Marine Mammal Protection Act. How impactful would it be for the marketing of pinniped products if we could somehow get that Marine Mammal Protection Act amended and gain access to the U.S. market? How much potential is there for us, Mr. Hardy?

[Robert Hardy]

The Marine Mammal Protection Act was put in place in 1972, I believe, mainly to protect whales. Given the increase in pinnipeds internationally—not only in Canada, although we have by far the largest numbers—the removal or negotiation of the Marine Mammal Protection Act would be critically important to doing new business and developing products and markets for seals.

I believe the President of the United States is visiting Canada today. I know for sure that the Marine Mammal Protection Act is not on the agenda, but it's going to have to be on someone's agenda. I believe our foreign affairs and our various parliamentarians need to negotiate. Believe it or not, the U.S. has a problem with seals, and they don't have millions.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Hardy.

I'll be wearing this tie tomorrow in the House of Commons.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Don't pull that too tight, Mr. Small. You'll choke yourself.

[Voices]

Oh, oh!

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you for the reminder, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

I don't know of anyone here who wants to give you mouth-to-mouth.

We'll now go to Mr. Morrissey for six minutes or less, please.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you, Chair.

I have a question for...is it “Mr.” or “Dr.” Vascotto?

[Dr. Kris Vascotto]

You can use either one.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

But you are a doctor.

[Dr. Kris Vascotto]

Yes.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

You're a research scientist.

On March 9 before the committee, Dr. Vigneault from DFO said—it's in my notes here—that the size of the seal herd is having little impact on east coast fisheries. Do you have a comment?

[Dr. Kris Vascotto]

I would call that a stretch. The reason I would say that is that if you take a look at simply the maritime region, this is where DFO's own scientists have demonstrated this substantive increase in natural mortality in many of our groundfish stocks. They've all been synonymous with the presence of seals. If you go just around the corner, up into the Gulf of St. Lawrence, you find that many of DFO's own stock assessments are saying that for something like yellowtail flounder, American plaice and southern gulf cod, the main source of natural mortality is being derived from seal predation. Those same documents will say there's very little hope of improvement unless we deal with that natural mortality problem.

If you go further north, up into Newfoundland waters, there's not quite the willingness to make that tight link, but I would certainly question the conclusion that was tabled based upon the research provided by DFO.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

Thank you.

My next question is for Mr. Arsenault. I'll be candid; I've known him for most of my adult life.

You've been involved in the fishery. As a lifelong fisher and somebody who's been very involved in the industry in a leadership role based on conservation—your work is immanent in preserving the fishery for the future—what is DFO science missing in the relationship between seal eating habits and the size of the Atlantic fish stock? Why is there, in your view, a disconnect? Are they accurately capturing how seals feed in Atlantic Canada waters?

[Danny Arsenault]

I don't think so. I think maybe they are more now. If you go back a few years ago, when all of this started taking place, no one could really understand what was happening. We had a moratorium in place. The stocks were going to be rebuilt in a few years and everything would be back to normal.

All of a sudden, it started going the other way. They couldn't figure out what was wrong. When we questioned them at groundfish meetings, we told them, “Well, the seals are eating all the fish. That's why.” They said, “Oh, no, we have proof that they're not.” When we asked what it was, they said they were finding some small fish, and they proved it was cod through the otoliths.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

They were finding some in their stomach contents.

[Danny Arsenault]

Yes, in their stomach contents; the otolith bones and their heads—that was how they identified it.

They said they didn't find any large cod. Large cod weren't being eaten. At that time, we spoke up almost simultaneously around the table: “Oh? Well, why are the large cod disappearing off our trawls and our nets? All we're catching is the heads.”

The heads are bigger and heavier on the big cod. They're almost all solid bone and are almost impossible to digest. What they were doing was eating them up as far as the head, and that was it.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

You mean the seal was eating them.

[Danny Arsenault]

The seal was.

I remember the head scientist looking at me. He came and talked to me about it after. He asked if I had really seen this. I said that I would bring him some pictures of it.

After that, it seemed the next year that their outlook changed. They realized what they were missing, which was that they were destroying a lot more than just a few small fish. This is where things started to go.

Then we see every stock go the same way and just start to totally disappear. Today we have nothing left. It's terrible.

[Bobby Morrissey, Liberal, Egmont, PE]

I'm not sure who can answer my question. I want to get to Mr. LeClair.

Is the current vessel capability and capacity adequate to effectively harvest seals? We keep talking about expanding markets. Until we actually have an effective harvest of existing quotas and then to effectively grow that, does the fleet have the capacity? Does government have to invest in the infrastructure to effectively and efficiently harvest seals, both from the catching capacity and on the shore?

The comment I make is if the animal is not properly harvested and brought back, nobody can process it into any product.

Am I correct in that assumption, Mr. Arsenault?