Fisheries Committee on June 8th, 2023

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My colleague is giving me some extra time now.

If this is solved now, why do you think you're seeing people like Member of Congress Dingell still wanting a change? Isn't that enough to tell you that the relationship is broken enough that Congress wants this structurally changed? How much more would you have to hear? How do you perceive the next number of years going forward, when you have a partner who does not want to be in this relationship at this level anymore?

What am I supposed to say to them? What are my speaking points? When I go back to Congresswoman Dingell's room in Congress and they say that they still want this to change, what am I supposed to say?

[Niall O'Dea]

Mr. Chair, as I've noted, we recognize the challenges in the relationship. That's why we're working very actively at the senior-most levels to come to a better place and make sure that we have a mutual understanding of our respective obligations within the context of the implementation of the treaty, which we are supporting.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

The DFO does some really amazing work. I don't want to be....

Again, the deputy ministers aren't here, but do you not think that at some point, in the interest of the DFO and your objectives, the broken relationship you've helped create, predominantly, needs to be fixed by another party at this point, and stepping back might be good for the environment and good for DFO at this point in time? Has that discussion taken place?

[Niall O'Dea]

We are very actively engaged in solving the challenges that are within our current mandate to solve, and we are actively committed to seeing that happen in the very short coming period.

[Brian Masse, NDP, Windsor West, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I know my time is running out.

I want to thank my colleague for giving up her valuable time here in the committee.

I find it odd that we would keep insisting on a broken model that the other partner wants to fix, in different way than us, and we still don't have a solution.

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Masse.

We'll now go on to Mr. Perkins for five minutes or less, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, witnesses.

Mr. McClinchey, in the last five years, has the commission received the full allotment that Parliament has allocated to the Great Lakes commission in any year?

[Gregory McClinchey]

In the last two years, Mr. Chair, DFO has transferred.... I believe for the current fiscal year, it's $11 million. It was approximately the same amount, off the top of my head, in the last year, which means there was about $8.5 million withheld that covers the amount allocated to sea lamprey control. There has been that withholding.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's in the last two years, but I asked about the last five years.

Is it the same, pretty much, every year prior to that?

[Gregory McClinchey]

Prior to that, we were given.... The amount for sea lamprey control is always withheld, as the other witnesses have noted. That's not something we are entirely comfortable with, but we want to have some discussions. Prior to the last two fiscal years, the amount was less than what the formula—set as required by the treaty—would have suggested we should receive.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Thank you.

Mr. O'Dea, the U.S. section of the Great Lakes Fishery Commission—and our Canadian section understands this—has been extremely vocal and upset about the fact that Canada has, for years, contravened the will of the commission.

Between 2001 and budget 2022, for instance, your department failed to advance the commission's budget requests. In 2021, the Canadian commissioners told the other commissioners that Canada is living up to its treaty obligation, all while the U.S. was quietly paying Canada's bills, mainly in the area of the sea lamprey.

It's like the bank teller skimming a bit off every time there's a deposit made. Can you tell me why DFO was skimming that money?

[Niall O'Dea]

Sir, I will turn to my CFO colleague to speak in more detail.

DFO is skimming no money from the GLFC. All funding invested in DFO for the purposes of supporting the activities of the GLFC is invested in supporting the activities of the GLFC.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Okay.

I'm sorry. I have limited time. I will follow up on that.

I will say Parliament allocates this money to the GLFC. It's not allocated to DFO. It allocates it to GLFC.

Can you tell me what statutory authority DFO has to usurp Parliament's votes on the budget to send this money to the Great Lakes commission?

[Niall O'Dea]

The appropriation from Parliament is allocated to the budget of Fisheries and Oceans Canada.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

That's for the purpose of going to the Great Lakes Fishery Commission, not the DFO. You're just a transfer agent. You're not under Parliament's voting authority. It's not budgeted to you to take a piece of it. It's budgeted to go to the commission. That's what we vote on every year, so what's the statutory authority that gives you the right to take money away from what Parliament has actually allocated to the commission?

[Richard Goodyear]

Mr. Chair, just to reiterate the relationship, and going back to the convention as a foundational piece, first of all, the requirements, as the member has set out, are set by the Great Lakes Fishery Commission, but the budget is actually then approved by the contracting parties, so it will come to Canada and it will come to the U.S. to approve the budget.

In terms of the Canadian parliamentary system, as you know, funding is appropriated to the Department of Fisheries and Oceans to manage the Great Lakes fishery relationship from a Canadian funding perspective.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

It says in the budget that it is for the commission; it doesn't say it's for DFO. You're just a funding vehicle.

Mr. Baker, what, from your perspective, is the result of the U.S. feeling as though it has to pay Canada's bills?

[Ethan Baker]

It's been very frustrating. I appreciate the question.

The irony is that we're pretty much in lockstep with the Canadian commissioners. We're floored by the fact that the U.S. and Canadian commissioners agree on what needs to happen and agree on the funding, and yet it's actually DFO that makes those changes. The reality is that we had a discussion a year or two ago about all of those monies that haven't been paid by Canada over the years and whether or not we should be trying to go back to Canada for those monies as well. We made the decision out of goodwill to just stick to that current fiscal year, so it's been extremely frustrating to us.

Obviously, our relationship with Canada is very important, and it seems almost ridiculous to some that we're here, having these discussions. If the United States and Canada can't get along at a national level on this, that doesn't make sense.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Mr. Baker, can you table with the committee how much money it is that you think you've covered over the years? If you did go back and ask for it, what would it be?

[Ethan Baker]

Sure. I'd have to specifically ask Mr. Lambe or Mr. McClinchey if they have that figure in front of them.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Or they could just table it with the committee.

[Ethan Baker]

Sure thing.

[Robert Lambe]

If we were to go back to the last time Canada funded according to the formula, it would be the year 2000, so the cumulative deficit from that period to 2022, when it was funded, would be about $70 million.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

Wow. Thank you.

I think my time is up.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

It's pretty close, sir, yes.

We'll go to Mr. Kelloway for five minutes or less.

Go ahead, please.