Fisheries Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Welcome, Mr. Zeman.

Going back a number of years to when I used to sit on the sport fishing advisory board, DFO would present data to members of the public to create advice on open seasons or the opening of fisheries. DFO members at that time reported that they had to account for IUU harvest in the calculation of escapements.

Is that still the case? Do you know? I believe the BCWF has members who sit on the sport fishing advisory board.

[Jesse Zeman]

I think it's getting better, from what I understand, but there was certainly a constraint in the system in some of the escapement models, where compliance and protection would find fish that had been caught and killed and that didn't work into the model.

I think in the past there have been some issues between resource managers and fishery protection officers in terms of putting all that data together to account for IUU fisheries. I'd say it's variable. It's not perfect, but my understanding is that that part of the equation is improving.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Through your organization, would you be able to obtain the information from DFO on how those numbers factor into determining the annual allowable catch, either for commercial or recreational fisheries? It was the recreational fishery that I was referring to earlier. If you could provide those in writing, that would be fantastic.

Mr. Zeman, it's concerning to hear you talk about the decrease of DFO's C and P capacities in B.C. and the Fraser. Can you share the reasons for the apparent decrease at a time when enforcement is needed to prevent the extinction of some stocks?

[Jesse Zeman]

That one I don't have a good answer to. I've asked the question. No one seems to have a good answer. I don't know why. I can't tell you.

I know the outcome is that there have been very few helicopter patrols compared with in the past. There have been very few boat patrols and very few night patrols. I don't have the answer. I'm definitely hearing that there are some pretty serious cultural issues and changes that are happening within DFO.

I think that's a really good question for the committee to put to compliance and protection to ask historically how many flights we were doing every summer, how many patrols we were doing, how much night work we were doing and whether it has changed. The next question after that is, “Why?”

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

It used to be that fishery openings were authorized by DFO or there were no openings. Is that the case? Do you know?

Are you hearing of fisheries being potentially authorized by other agreements in other parts of the country? Are you aware of that happening in B.C., and has that complicated enforcement in B.C.?

[Jesse Zeman]

I'm not aware of that in B.C., no.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

What year was the RAPP line moved to an external operator, and what year was your smart phone app introduced?

[Jesse Zeman]

The ORR line, I think that happened years ago. It was maybe decades ago; I'm not sure. I don't know who manages it now, but at the time it was the commissionaires. I believe our app was probably created around 2017, something like that—2016 or 2017. It was really to fill a gap and to help the public report stuff.

As I said, one of the other advantages around having a smart phone is that it has a GPS, so it provides really good location data. If there's someone on one end of the phone on the other end of the phone it's really hard to explain where you are on a river or on a road verbally.

That's the history.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I'd like to drill down a little further on the effects of IUU fishing in B.C. What are the effects when fish are harvested but the harvest is not reported, and why is it essential that those fish be taken into account?

[Jesse Zeman]

Certainly, you have to monitor it to manage it. That applies to compliance and enforcement, or compliance and protection. That applies to fisheries management, and that applies to everybody's bank accounts. If you don't know what's going into the system and you don't know what's going out of the system, you're guessing the whole way through, which makes our estimates unreliable and that can have some pretty severe conservation impacts as well. It just really increases your level of risk.

The other thing is that, when we can't account for it, typically, it comes out of regulated fishing, so it impacts everyone who wants—

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Five minutes goes quickly. If there's anything else you can provide to the committee, we'd certainly be happy to see it in writing.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Five minutes and 30 seconds goes pretty fast too.

Mr. Kelloway you have five minutes or less, please.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you, Mr. Zeman, for your insight and your expertise.

I guess this would fall under both of those, but also, maybe an opinion. Is there an organized crime aspect to the sale of illegally harvested fish in B.C.?

[Jesse Zeman]

That's the impression we've been given by former DFO officers, but again, compliance and protection I feel would be the best to speak to that in a meaningful way.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Again, based on observations or opinion, do you know whether the RCMP is aware and whether they're doing anything to try to intervene? I think clearly what we're seeing here is that this is a web of responsibilities. DFO has its responsibility. CBSA has some responsibility. Provincial police and RCMP may have some responsibility. Are you seeing any interaction on the ground with respect to the RCMP?

[Jesse Zeman]

I can't articulate to that effect. I do know, through my discussions with DFO, that DFO and CBSA do work together. That has been made clear to us, but the RCMP's role in that I'm not aware of.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'm an Atlantic Canadian so I'm getting familiar with B.C. I'm wondering, when it comes to the illegal harvesting of fish, whether there are certain communities that are more impacted than others. Is there a top-tier level of communities that have more illegal fishing and harvesting of fish than others?

[Jesse Zeman]

That's a good question. I'm just thinking. It seems like through the app there are places and times where there are increased reports of infractions, but it's really hard to say whether that's a function of there being a lot of people, i.e., eyes and ears, out in those places. It would be really challenging to put that data together. That may be best for compliance and protection.

Certainly, as it relates to the app we have, it works really well where there are a lot of people. There are other parts of the province in B.C. in particular where there are very few people, so it's hard to say. I would say in terms of the impacts, we're all impacted by IUU. Everyone who cares about fish and about salmon and who wants to go fishing, every store owner who sells tackle—everyone is impacted.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I think this has been asked in one form or fashion, but I'm wondering if you can drill down deeply in terms of the ecosystem impact caused by illegal fishing. Perhaps it could be something you're seeing now or something you have seen—you can go past, present and future—with respect to illegal fishing and why from an ecosystem perspective this is absolutely critical and important. If you could highlight that for us, that would be great.

[Jesse Zeman]

It's a challenging question to answer because we don't actually know how much is coming out of the bucket every single year as it relates to IUU, so it makes it really hard to make a guess.

One of the big announcements that came out was around the provincial nature agreement and protecting old growth forests. As we know, and as we continue to learn on the coast, old growth forests are often fed by salmon carcasses, which are moved by bears.

The answer is that we're all interconnected. We need to take care of this resource if we want old growth trees. If we want to take care of grizzly bears, then here in British Columbia we're going to need salmon in our rivers. Again, in the absence of a properly funded and staffed compliance and protection agency, we really don't know how much goes missing. We have these cases where people get busted or get fines or end up in court, but I think we're only really scratching the surface as it relates to IUU. It's an unknown, it feels like.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

I'm wondering.... Well, I'll just ask you. If there are three things with respect to this topic that you want to leave this committee with, what would they be as it relates to this very topic in terms of what could be a solution, what could be an observation or what could be an observation and solution or an idea of some sort in terms of something to leave us with that we need to do extra due diligence on.

[Jesse Zeman]

In my mind, again, it comes to outcomes. In my mind, it would be developing a metric to say how many officers we need per square kilometre of river or per thousand square kilometres of river, and that would be a recommendation that would go up: “Here's how many officers we should have for these different rivers to meet the minimum baseline.”

The second piece under that is what they do and how we focus on outcomes and also on bringing stakeholders, first nations and the public along and getting everyone on board.

The other one is that we really need to address this culture issue. We do see it in other parts of the world of fish and wildlife, where we bring in managers from other ministries and other agencies who do not have the passion for the resource. We live in this world where fish people.... They're half crazy. This is what they live and breathe and what they love to do, and when we bring in people who do not share that passion, it really feels like the ship gets turned in a direction that is not consistent with the desires of the public.

[Mike Kelloway, Liberal, Cape Breton—Canso, NS]

Thanks very much. I really appreciate that.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, please.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Zeman, I'd like to come back to what you said earlier about the frustration with funding and the fact that the Department of Fisheries and Oceans must base its interventions on results.

How could you reach this goal more effectively? Do you need more money, better communication or more agents in the field?

What do you think needs to be done urgently? What would be the most constructive thing to do next?