Fisheries Committee on Nov. 28th, 2023

[Jesse Zeman]

That's a good question.

I can relate more in the world of fisheries management and the world of biology and funding. Certainly, when we look across the line, we find that funding as it relates to the sustainability of species like salmon is orders of magnitude more than it is here in Canada.

Specifically as it relates to compliance and enforcement or compliance and protection, I don't have that data. We're not in touch with them. However, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that, south of the border, their budgets are orders of magnitude greater than what they are here in Canada.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

In terms of the various threats to wild Pacific salmon populations—climate change, habitat destruction, some people saying salmon farming is a threat, others saying pinnipeds are a big threat—how would you rate IUU fishing for salmon in terms of where it sits on a scale of threats to wild Pacific salmon populations?

[Jesse Zeman]

Thanks for the question.

The best answer is that it will depend on the run of fish. When we talk about endangered interior Fraser steelhead and we talk about Chilcotin fish in 2021-22, if the estimate was that only 19 fish made it to the spawning grounds when there should have been thousands, and we had two of them seized in August in the river, I would say that the threat is extremely high.

Broadly, though, a lot of the science that's coming back now seems to tie in to pinniped predation. The answer is that it's variable, but when we have only a few handfuls of fish left, it can be very high.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Zeman, you talked about your reporting line or about the app you set up. Do you think the minister has been made aware of illegal salmon fishing in B.C.?

[Jesse Zeman]

Yes.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Do you have specific examples of where this illegal fishing was reported and of the actions taken by DFO? Were charges laid and penalties issued?

[Jesse Zeman]

That's a really good question. It is a bit of a black box, I would say. Once the report goes in, in terms of outcomes, we are not often privy to what happens during or after an investigation. Our membership and the public who have downloaded the app have used it to report infractions. It happens regularly.

As for what happens after that, I'm definitely not aware. I think there are definitely some complexities in the system. I think that would be another great question for compliance and protection.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Zeman.

If we did some access to information probes, we might be able to find out some of that information and get it submitted before this study concludes. It seems like we're kind of spinning our wheels in getting this study completed. You can feel free...or we may do some ATIPs ourselves to check out some of this stuff.

If DFO is not providing the appropriate C and P, what do you think is holding them back? Do you think they're being told to stand down on some of these activities by other government departments? Do you think that could be possible?

[Jesse Zeman]

It could be possible. As expressed, there is definitely a concern from former officers that there has been, and there is, an ongoing culture shift within compliance and protection. There's been a move away from people who are young and who care about the resource. There's been a shift to bringing managers in from other ministries. It is not going well. I think the result is that there's a lack of presence on the river.

I don't know why that's happening at the top end, but at the bottom end, we're certainly seeing the result with the lack of presence.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Mr. Zeman, if this continues, what will be the end result? If the Minister of Fisheries doesn't get a grip on these activities, what will be the end result for these precious wild Pacific salmon stocks?

[Jesse Zeman]

It's variable. As I said, the best example is that, in a year, potentially only 21 fish got up to spawn. Two of them died in one day and were found by fisheries officers. The challenge with this is that we don't know what we don't know. If we don't have a presence on the river, we don't know what's going missing.

We definitely have years where reports go through the roof and we find all kinds of issues related to IUU. I did see the previous speaker. There certainly has been a lot of discussion, which I haven't been privy to, around even the discovery of potentially a million pounds of fish that were found on a foreign vessel off the west coast.

It's big. These are not trivial amounts. Do we know how much? No. We get only a small fraction of what's actually happening out there.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Hardie for six minutes or less, please.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Zeman, it's good to have you with us.

On that last point, you mentioned that fish were found on a vessel. Where was the vessel outbound from? Do you know?

[Jesse Zeman]

In my world, we're getting second-hand information come up through DFO a number of times. It was definitely not a Canadian vessel. That's the best way to put it. I understand—

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Where did it come from? What was its port of exit? Was it the mainland, was it Vancouver Island, was it up north...? Do you know?

[Jesse Zeman]

I don't know. I didn't ask those questions. I'm not privy. I think those are questions, again, for the committee to ask, for sure. I know that scales were taken off some of the fish, and they found out that they were B.C.-bound fish.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You mentioned that there's an app that people can use to report. Is this something that the wildlife federation has put together?

[Jesse Zeman]

Yes, we created it, the BCWF, because we were having so many issues with reporting both through to the province and through to DFO.

As said, to report an infraction to DFO, it goes through what's called the observe, record, report line, which I understand, at least before, was being operated by commissionaires, not by DFO. That line, most of the time, went to voice mail and, if you were lucky, you would get someone on the line to report it to.

As a result, we created an app that would allow people to automatically report infractions that go directly to the agency so that the public has a record. Of course, with a smart phone, it has GPS, and there are a whole bunch of advantages. It's really interesting that an ENGO or conservation group is creating these tools for the public to report infractions. One would think that it would be the responsibility of both the Province of British Columbia and the Government of Canada.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Can you give us statistics on how many times your app has been used, say, in the last year? You can provide that in writing if it's available.

[Jesse Zeman]

I could get my staff to look that up, and I can get it sent to the committee.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

You have an app. Did you say that there are other apps out there doing the same thing?

[Jesse Zeman]

There are no other apps, no.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Years ago, and I'm talking about quite a number of years ago, there was an item in the newspaper that B.C. Parks, which used to have inspectors and enforcement officers, cut things back, and there was one officer for the entire province.

Does that position even exist anymore, or is the province not engaged at all in this issue?

[Jesse Zeman]

As it relates to IUU, the province has the B.C. conservation officer service, and they would be the ones doing the work. It's a very different culture and workflow.

Again, I think in our world of taking care of our fish, wildlife and habitat resources, from our perspective, there are not enough people and there never are enough people, but the conservation officer service does have staff. They're not experiencing the same cultural issues that compliance and protection are right now and, to be quite frank, it would not surprise me to see some DFO compliance and protection officers go to the conservation officer service.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

That's fair enough.

Of course, up and down the Fraser River, the Skeena, the Nass, etc., quite often the big, bright light is shone on first nations' involvement in fisheries, illegal or otherwise.

Do you think that, when enforcement comes around, there are uncertainties or a lack of clarity in UNDRIP around the fishing rights and indigenous rights that are applied? Are they clear? Would enforcement officers be in a position to make the right call?