Evidence of meeting #90 for Fisheries and Oceans in the 44th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was fines.
A recording is available from Parliament.
12:35 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Madame Desbiens. It's right on time.
I see the bells are ringing again for some folks. Does everybody want to continue doing it on the phone, once it counts down for the half hour, so we can continue with our testimony from the witnesses?
I see thumbs up and heads nodding. Thank you.
We'll now go to Mr. Boulerice for two and a half minutes or less.
12:35 p.m.
NDP
Alexandre Boulerice NDP Rosemont—La Petite-Patrie, QC
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
I want to turn the focus to climate change and its impacts. Climate change is affecting our oceans, which will alter fish habitats. The movement of fish stocks is going to affect the members you represent, harvesters in Prince Edward Island or the Maritime provinces.
Currently, fisheries management systems are based on areas. Regional fisheries management organizations and national fisheries regulations cover static, predetermined areas. Conversely, climate change is forcing fish stocks and species to adapt and relocate.
How should the federal government plan for this relocation or shifting distribution of species in Canadian waters, if it wants to deter fishers from engaging in illegal fishing? We have a system that's based on areas, but the environment is changing because of climate change. How might that affect illegal fishing?
12:35 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
That's an interesting question.
We are seeing areas change. Historic areas shift and things like that. We need to modify our enforcement and monitoring of those areas when things shift, not just keep focusing on the same areas, because things are changing out there.
We're still trying to assess the impact of hurricane Fiona on Prince Edward Island. One thing most committee members would know is that we may not see the impacts on lobster—because of their life cycle—for five to seven years, which is distressing.
12:40 p.m.
Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual
Science is key. There's no question about that. I believe climates are changing. I believe our fish stocks are moving.
The point about our fish stocks in Atlantic Canada is that they're not predominantly around one province. The fish are off the north of Prince Edward Island, the east of New Brunswick and part of Quebec. As the months change, they go over to the province of Newfoundland and around Nova Scotia.
I think it's key that we understand how our waters are changing, how our fish are adapting or moving with climate change and how waters are warming. With that, we must make sure the departments mandated to watch, look over or whatever are also changing.
12:40 p.m.
Liberal
The Chair Liberal Ken McDonald
Thank you, Mr. Boulerice.
We'll now go to Mr. Arnold for five minutes or less.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you, Mr. Chair. I'm starting my watch here.
Mr. Fox, you were asked questions a few moments ago, and you started to explain problems with the court systems, changing laws and so on. Then you were cut off from replying.
Would you like to continue with your reply about the problems with overlapping court systems, or whatever it was you were going to say?
12:40 p.m.
Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual
The federal or provincial government can put in minimum and maximum fines in regard to any contravention of any law or act. The judiciary, which is a separate branch of government, can interpret that infraction as it applies to a law, then issue a fine relevant to previous case law or to other fines that have been given out, respectively.
To say the provincial minister failed to raise a fine, where applicable, is not the way the real world works. The provincial minister of any department does not interfere with a judge or judicial system, or suggest to the Attorney General what a fine should be. We can bring in a maximum and a minimum, but it's up to the judicial system and the judge hearing the case to determine what the level of fine should be, according to the infraction.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you.
At this committee, we've heard there is an exchange of jurisdiction over the product at the docks. On the boats, I believe it's mostly under the jurisdiction of the federal Department of Fisheries and Oceans—DFO. Once it hits the docks and has landed, I believe it becomes provincial jurisdiction.
Can you explain that a little more clearly, so we have that information as a committee? How can that process be improved for better control, monitoring and enforcement of fisheries products as they are landed?
12:40 p.m.
Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual
We can't look at measures to record catches as just the fisher's responsibility. The buyer and processor have a responsibility, also. There needs to be a clear path to compare what the fisher is bringing in and what the buyer or processor is processing and shipping. That, I think, is where there's a gap in the system right now. It's not the fisher who is totally responsible for the handling of the product. When the fisher brings it in and the product or species is delivered at the dock, it goes to a buyer, then into the world market or the processing sector.
There needs to be an approach whereby the species fisher, the buyer and the processor can share more information in order to find out whether what is landed is going out the back door or the front door.
12:40 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Mr. MacPherson, you were talking earlier about e-logs. There seems to be very slow adaptation, in terms of using them.
Can you provide us with any information you have on why there has been a slow process in accepting e-logs, and the value they could have?
12:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
There have been several things.
Probably one of the most significant ones was around 2017, I believe, when the platform changed. There was a working group between industry and DFO on this particular challenge—getting it going and implementing it. I'm not an IT expert, but that meant the companies or organizations that, at the time, had developed a log had to step back, reinvest and develop on a different platform. That was not only costly but also time-consuming.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
Mel Arnold Conservative North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC
Thank you.
For one or both of you, in your experience and observations, is there adequate communication, coordination and co-operation between federal and provincial activities fighting IUU?
12:45 p.m.
Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual
I can say that the relationship regionally among DFO and the provincial departments of fisheries is a good balance. They do talk a lot, and there is a lot of conversation and education back and forth on what's going on.
I will say that there sometimes seems to be a disconnect between the regional office of DFO and the headquarters bunch on what's happening on the ground area and what's needed on the ground area or in the fishery itself.
12:45 p.m.
Conservative
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Hello to both of you.
Last meeting we heard from the CBSA that export documents are provided to folks shipping seafood across Canadian borders. We were told that the paperwork is provided by the processors, who are regulated by the province.
Mr. Fox, as fisheries minister, are you aware of that particular component?
12:45 p.m.
Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual
That's right.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Yes. I am wondering, too, Mr. Fox, if you can tell us a bit about how the provinces oversee processors to ensure that they're acting in good faith and not allowing illegally caught seafood to be shipped out of the country.
12:45 p.m.
Former Minister of Fisheries and Communities, Government of Prince Edward Island, As an Individual
The province, of course, licenses the buyers, and then they license the processors, and then they report, of course, what's going out in a rough number. It's not really to the pound, but it's an approximate value and roughly where that seafood is going.
One problem the Province of Prince Edward Island has is that some of our seafood that's landed in Prince Edward Island is calculated on the papers of the Province of Nova Scotia, because it's processed over there.
Then, vice versa, in some cases there is product that comes over from the province of New Brunswick into the province of Prince Edward Island.
There needs to be—and it's in the works—a more clear-cut way of analyzing how the species move between provinces and how it's calculated.
12:45 p.m.
Liberal
Mike Kelloway Liberal Cape Breton—Canso, NS
Thanks very much.
The way I approach problems is that I to try to look at the long-term solutions and the low-hanging fruit of what we can do now. I usually try to categorize it in three different pieces. First we do this, and second we do that in terms of the low-hanging fruit.
I just want to try to crystalize and capture three things that the Government of Canada can do now to mitigate what's happening, because we've clearly heard, both on this committee and back home, that IUU is a huge problem. It's a huge problem in terms of what we think it's doing to the ecosystem, but there's also the underground economy and potential ties to organized crime.
From both of your perspectives, if I were to ask, which I am, three things that we can be doing right now or in the next six months to mitigate.... We'll park the long term and stick to the short term. This is for both Mr. MacPherson and you, Mr. Fox.
November 30th, 2023 / 12:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
I have four, if that's okay.
12:45 p.m.
Executive Director, Prince Edward Island Fishermen's Association
I think the tags in licensing should be reviewed. That could be done, I think.
We used to get annual audits, and I think a lot of that's gone away, so that could be reactivated with a time frame and an action plan for the implementation of electronic logs. It was not meant to be staged in all fisheries at once, which we totally understand, but there is no real rollout, I think, for any fishery planned in the immediate future.
Certainly, everyone fishing the same seasons is a big thing in terms of keeping harmony on the water, and control. It makes it easier for DFO.
The last one, as I mentioned earlier, is to take a look at the hiring criteria for someone to be a dockside monitor. If someone is not fishing a species, could that not be a great person who knows the water, is used to being out on the water and those kinds of things? I think it just needs to be looked at to hopefully add more people to dockside monitoring.