Fisheries Committee on Nov. 30th, 2023

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

A full five minutes. That's generous.

Mr. Hardie.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you very much.

I'm a west coaster, so I'm going to ask what may be a couple of really dumb questions, but just put it down to my being a west coaster.

Why do people fish illegally? The answer, of course, is pretty clear. They want to make money, but are there some factors in there? I'll give you one, and it might make you think of some others.

It was suggested in one of our earlier hearings when we were talking to somebody that the difficulty in getting licences, which is an issue out on the west coast, could lead people to just basically go out and freelance, where they go out and fish illegally.

Number one, is that a factor on the east coast?

Number two, are there other reasons?

We'll leave it at that, because I have a follow-up question. Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Jamie Fox]

I can tell you that I've always believed in one licence in and one licence out, as it applies to the lobster fishery or a species fishery. In some cases, there are individuals who fish without a licence—grey boats or black boats, as they call them—but then there are also the other individuals who can turn a fast buck.

It's no different from contraband cigarettes. We used to float them down the river at St. Croix and into St. Stephen. They'd be dropped at the border and floated down. It's a way of making money or supplementing your income. You don't have to pay taxes.

It applies the same way to the fishery. If I can bring in 500, 600, 1,000 or 10,000 pounds—whatever, it doesn't matter—I can sell that at a reduced cost and get cash in my pocket.

It's organized crime, I have to say. That's exactly what it is: organized crime.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you.

One of the issues that come up quite often in our discussions about the west coast is the impact of the indigenous fishery. Perhaps there's a lack of clarity on what really constitutes a ceremonial food fishery, which is permitted. Is there a lack of clarity, particularly for enforcement officers, when they come across indigenous fishers fishing?

[Ian MacPherson]

I would suggest there is, yes.

I think part of it is this: It's a self-regulating fishery, and it's not managed in the same way as commercial fisheries. There are tags issued, but it's spot checks. That's why a lot of what we're putting forth here today is.... As harvesters, let's work together and have the same management controls.

I think, at the end of the day, everyone has the same interest: to preserve the fishery for future generations. However, it's a concern.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

Thank you for that.

We were to have, today, a witness representing some of the first nations guardians, who play a meaningful role out on the west coast.

Can you give us your assessment of that program? Do they have training? Do they have the enforcement backup? Are they being put in the impossible situation of trying to enforce or observe fishing in their community?

[Ian MacPherson]

One of the problems is that, because non-indigenous harvesters aren't involved in a lot of the discussions, we don't know. I can't comment on that. It doesn't mean it's a bad program. We've been trying for a long time, Mr. Hardie, to get more dialogue going among the federal government, first nations and non-indigenous harvester groups. We're not getting much traction. I'll tell you that.

[Ken Hardie, Liberal, Fleetwood—Port Kells, BC]

I spent a wee bit of time with the Vancouver police.

Mr. Fox, I'll call on your enforcement background.

You see a situation and.... We saw a lot of disorder, a couple of summers or seasons ago. There were burnings and all kinds of stuff going on. Here you are. You are one officer sent out to do something, and you see all kinds of stuff going on. However, it's just you and maybe 40 or 50 other people. That puts you, the officer, in a pretty dicey situation.

What can you do about that?

[Jamie Fox]

Departments need to work together more.

I was in a situation a number of years ago, when seiner fishers came into Souris. There was a large protest at the Souris wharf.

Mr. Morrissey, you would remember that.

We were a small police department. How did we deal with that, as it came towards us? It puts a lone officer in a situation that's not very comfortable.

I think that when departments and agencies work together on intelligence-gathering, and when incidents happen, they can come together as a unified body. That helps. However, conservation officers need to know the circumstances around them and be educated about what is actually happening on the ground.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Mr. Hardie. We have gone a bit over.

We'll now go to Madame Desbiens for two and a half minutes, before we vote.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to turn back to the security officers, the conservation officers, all the people responsible for policing illegal fishing, so to speak. Someone in my immediate family is a police officer who's worked on patrol ships on the St. Lawrence River.

You called for better coordination among stakeholders at all levels. Building on that idea, I'd like to know whether the committee should make a recommendation to the government, one that would apply not just to DFO but also to the Department of Public Safety and Emergency Preparedness. I'm talking about a clear direction to support or implement a more coordinated system, so stakeholders can communicate more effectively and deliver a more coordinated response on the ground. Would that be a useful recommendation the committee could make as part of this study?

[Jamie Fox]

There needs to be a clear-cut intelligence-gathering group or mechanism that has all the different agencies in place.

We used to call it the “Criminal Intelligence Agency of P.E.I.” It had members from DFO conservation, the RCMP and municipal police departments on it—anybody who was in an enforcement role. Information was immediately passed on, as it was learned, to the different agencies, so that everybody was aware.

In a nutshell, we need to get back to that model and stop living in silos.

[Caroline Desbiens, Bloc, Beauport—Côte-de-Beaupré—Île d’Orléans—Charlevoix, QC]

People on the ground have told me the same thing: we need to get back to that type of coordinated approach.

Would better coordination or co‑operation ultimately lead to better results? Let's say we go that route. Do you think illegal fishing would improve by 20%, 30%, 50% or 80%, say?

The question is for either of you, or both if we have time.

[Jamie Fox]

I don't know what the percentage would be, but I can tell you that education is key. Agencies need to know what their roles and responsibilities are as they apply to illegal activity. If it's a fisheries issue, then we must make sure that Fisheries is the lead and that the RCMP or other agencies have a backup role to support them as required. It's the exact same with illegal drugs or whatever.

Communication is key, and information flowing back and forth is key. We need to be going back to that model. To be honest, I haven't seen that model since, I would say, the very early 2000s.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

Thank you, Madame Desbiens.

It's gone a little bit over, and that brings us to the time to vote.

We'll suspend for everyone to vote.

[The Chair, Liberal, Ken McDonald]

When you're ready, Mr. Arnold, you have five minutes or less, please, to close her out.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start off again with Mr. MacPherson.

I asked you earlier about e-logs and when they were changed in DFO. Was it a snap decision that they just decided to go with a different platform? Was there any reasoning behind that?

[Ian MacPherson]

It was very disappointing, because a person out of our office was on the technical development committee. We weren't aware, and it came across, and they gave a date when the existing technology would no longer be accepted and when you would have to go out and develop to the new platform. It was very disappointing.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Mr. Fox, I'm not sure if you would know what happens with fines at the federal level, but when there are fines levied for IUU, illegal or unregulated fishing, where do those fines, the dollars, go? Do they simply go into general revenue, or is any portion of that directed back to conservation programs or anything else?

[Jamie Fox]

If it's a federal fine under a federal act, then, of course, the money goes back to the federal Crown. If it's a provincial fine, then it would go back to the provincial government. If the judge orders restitution or some kind of other monetary penalty, then that would go to the jurisdiction that is responsible for the act. The only difference, sometimes, is as with impaired driving, theft or something like that. It would stay within the province, but anything to do with drugs, illegal tobacco or fisheries would go back to the federal government.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Would it be beneficial if some of these fines were directed back into conservation programs?

[Jamie Fox]

It would, 100%. Proceeds of crime fines can be used to help combat illegal activity, and it would be a good move to support that.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

Apart from CBSA and Canada Revenue Agency, what other federal departments, agencies or Crown organizations play or should play a role in combatting illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing?

[Jamie Fox]

The RCMP definitely would be top of the list. Then there are the CBSA, the Canada Revenue Agency, the Department of the Environment and Transport Canada, because, in some cases, these vessels being used out there on the water are not in the best of shape and could pose a hazard to navigation if something were to happen to them.

There is a multitude of agencies that could be brought aboard.

[Mel Arnold, Conservative, North Okanagan—Shuswap, BC]

Thank you.

I will turn my remaining time over to Mr. Small. He has some more questions.