Fisheries Committee on Dec. 7th, 2023

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Good morning, everyone. I call this meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 92 of the House of Commons Standing Committee on Fisheries and Oceans.

This meeting is taking place in a hybrid format, pursuant to the Standing Orders.

Before I proceed, I'd like to make a few comments for the benefit of witnesses and members.

Please wait until I recognize you by name before speaking. For those participating by video conference, click on the microphone icon to activate your mic. Please mute yourself when you are not speaking.

There is interpretation for those on Zoom. You have the choice at the bottom of your screen of floor, English or French audio. For those in the room, you can use the earpiece and select the desired channel.

Please address all comments through the chair.

Before we proceed, I simply want to remind members to be very careful when handling the earpieces, especially when your microphone or your neighbour's microphone is turned on. Earpieces placed too close to the microphone are one of the most common causes of sound feedback, which is extremely harmful to interpreters and causes serious injuries.

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2) and the motion adopted on January 18, 2022, the committee is resuming its study of illegal, unreported and unregulated fisheries.

I would like to welcome our witnesses today. We have, representing the Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc., Mr. Stanley King, acting president. Representing the Group of Professional Pelagic Fishermen from Southern Gaspé, we have Ghislain Collin, president, and representing MDA we have Dr. Minda Suchan, vice-president, and Leslie Swartman, senior director of government and public affairs.

Thank you for taking the time to appear today. You will each have up to five minutes per organization for your opening statement.

I will invite Mr. King to begin, please.

[Rick Perkins, Conservative, South Shore—St. Margarets, NS]

I have a brief point of order.

Andrew Roman was invited as a witness today. I understand he can't be here because he did not get the appropriate headset from this committee. I would ask that Mr. Roman be reinvited and that the committee send him the appropriate headset for this study.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Are there any objections? Is there agreement around the room?

[Some hon. members]

Agreed.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Mr. Perkins.

Mr. King, please proceed.

[Stanley King, Acting President, Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery Inc.]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

I'm grateful for this opportunity to inform this committee on IUU harvesting in the Canadian elver industry. It's a problem that desperately needs to be addressed.

I'm here representing the Canadian Committee for a Sustainable Eel Fishery, which is a group that advocates for the conservation of American eel stocks through sustainable fishing practices and scientific monitoring. My family has also fished elvers for more than 25 years.

The Canadian elver fishery is unique. Fishing happens at night on select maritime rivers. Fish are sold live to foreign markets and exported to China. Illegal harvesting has steadily increased in recent years, but exploded in 2023, when licensed fishers were outnumbered 10 to one by poachers.

This fishery is particularly appealing to unlicensed fishers, as the barrier to entry is low. In recent years, the price per kilogram has increased considerably. That aside, the real draw for poachers has been the lack of enforcement. In 2023, DFO estimates that 45% of the overall quota was stolen by unlicensed harvesters, yet enforcement efforts to curb this poaching were noticeably absent. Among these poachers are bad actors, backed by organized crime. Our normally peaceful industry has recently seen kidnapping, robbery, assault, gun violence and an overall disruption to the peace. To date, the response from both DFO and the RCMP to this organized crime ring has been almost non-existent.

Poaching became so rampant in 2020, and again in 2023, that the minister prematurely closed the fishery, costing those fishing legally their livelihood while poachers continued to fish unfettered. In a few short years, the industry has gone from one of the most well-regulated fisheries in Canada to chaotic and unsustainable in its current form.

One thing all stakeholders can agree on is that DFO is mismanaging this fishery. All commercial licence-holders, the six chiefs of the Wolastoqey First Nation in New Brunswick, the Assembly of Nova Scotia Mi'kmaq Chiefs and the provincial governments of Nova Scotia and New Brunswick have all publicly stated that DFO has not done enough to curb poaching in the elver fishery.

Licence-holders have made countless reports of poaching and provided DFO with vehicle descriptions, licence plate numbers, the names of reported buyers, the addresses of reported holding facilities, and even flight details for upcoming export shipments of black-market fish. DFO enforcement took no action on these tips.

In one striking case, one poacher advertised on Facebook when and where he would be illegally buying elvers. We forwarded this information to RCMP officers, but again, no action was taken.

This lack of enforcement is especially frustrating on one particularly important river, Chester's East River, which is home to the longest-running scientific study on elver abundance in North America. This industry-funded study provides critical data that informs the DFO science on the health of elver stocks and the sustainability of our industry. We expressed to DFO that above all, this study needed to be protected from poachers. Despite our pleas, DFO did not protect the East River study from poachers. The study could not proceed, costing us valuable data.

There are two confounding factors to solving the challenges facing the elver fishery.

First, this is not a homegrown problem. Illegal elver fishing sits at the crossroads of a transnational organized crime network. Eels are so important to the Chinese, who are the primary buyers of Canadian elvers, that elvers are one of only 17 commodities protected as a national security concern by the Chinese government. Chinese buyers readily buy black and grey market elvers from anyone and pay in cash, which has opened the door for global organized crime.

The second challenge is the growing demand from indigenous people for access to the fishery. Our members have a long track record of supporting greater indigenous access. To ensure the sustainability of the industry, we feel strongly that access must be licensed by DFO. As of 2022, 28% of the overall quota is designated to indigenous harvesters, yet thousands of additional indigenous harvesters access the fishery without a DFO licence.

What's the solution?

The government needs to take immediate action on the following three points.

First, we need to implement a traceability system, similar to that in the U.S., to make it easier to identify unlawfully harvested fish.

Second, we need meaningful enforcement with meaningful consequences. The industry can no longer withstand token gestures of enforcement with shockingly low penalties.

Lastly, we need the federal government to stand behind its commitment to provide greater indigenous access to the fishery through a willing buyer-willing seller model. We have willing sellers.

To close, we have faith in our new minister and hope that a fresh perspective will bring positive change to the industry, but the next elver season is only three months away, so we must act quickly.

Thanks for your time.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you. You were almost right on time; thank you very much.

We'll go on to Mr. Collin now, please, online.

[Ghislain Collin, President, Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie]

Good morning.

Thank you for inviting me to appear before you today.

I'm not here today to make accusations against anyone in the fishing industry, but rather to criticize the methods of Fisheries and Oceans Canada, which exacerbates the inequality between Quebec's fleets and those of the other provinces, damages the resource, which is mismanaged and not data-based, and disregards the issue of tax evasion.

I will begin by explaining the differences between commercial herring and mackerel fishers from Quebec and those in the other provinces. No catch-reporting measures are in force in the other provinces, except for trawler fleets. The Quebec fishery is highly regulated. Hail-ins, logbooks and dockside weighing are a part of commercial fishers' everyday lives in Quebec. The same regulatory inequalities also affect seaweed harvesters, for example, who are forced to leave Quebec and work in New Brunswick, where harvesting laws are less restrictive.

Here's an example. I fish for herring in Carleton-sur-Mer, on Chaleur Bay, where fishers from Quebec and New Brunswick work the same fishing ground. To preserve the resource in Quebec, my catch is limited to 22,500 pounds of fish per week. I'm also required to shorten my nets, and there are spawning areas where fishing is prohibited. If I catch my fish on Tuesday, I have to take in my nets before the following Sunday. If I exceed the 22,500-pound limit during the week, I am sanctioned and have to pay a fine.

It's frustrating to be the only commercial fishers from Quebec making an effort to preserve the resource while others fish without being subject to controls and ruin our resource. Then we're abandoned as soon as the government no longer needs our data.

Nothing is being done despite all the comments, questions and recommendations I have submitted to the senior officials responsible for both resources, herring and mackerel, in Moncton and Halifax for all of Canada. What's worse is that, after two years of meetings and discussions with the members of that committee, meetings in which I have actively participated, criticizing these illegal practices that harm our resource and our livelihood, representatives of our organization are expelled from meetings. All the remarks they make are deleted from meeting minutes for arbitrary administrative reasons, even though our organization has a history of being a fishing leader based on our catch reports.

I strongly urge you to read the brief that the Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie prepared and submitted to the committee in 2021, criticizing this situation, on which no action has been taken.

This inability of senior officials to make decisions deprives their own scientists of invaluable data that would help them properly do their work, conduct studies and perform other tasks. It also perpetuates the inequality between Quebec fishers and those in the rest of Canada and causes irreparable harm to the Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie, which relies solely on the resource, by failing to properly manage those data and the mechanisms for protecting a fragile resource. This is tantamount to wilful blindness to the illegal practice of tax evasion.

As I observe this lack of action and this inequality, I see that other fishers associations, mainly in Quebec, have the same problem as we do. Redfish fishers are an example of this. No decision has been made to lift the moratorium. They are already fishing for redfish in the Maritimes, and fishers have already developed their markets. Quebec fishers are once again put at a disadvantage.

In conclusion, I ask that the Government of Canada shed light on this problematic situation in Canada's fisheries, which puts Quebec fishers at a disadvantage and deprives the Canadian government of revenue. The Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie is still awaiting compensatory measures for the closure of their fisheries.

Thank you.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Mr. Collin. You were a little bit over time, but very close. Thank you.

Now we'll move on to Dr. Suchan, if you could, please, for five minutes or less.

[Dr. Minda Suchan, Vice President, Geointelligence Division, MDA]

Good morning.

I'm the vice-president of geointelligence at MDA, and I'm excited to be here with you today to talk about the health and preservation of our world's ocean ecosystems.

Headquartered in Canada and publicly traded on the TSX, MDA is a global leader in the development of space technology and the country's leading space company. We are well known for iconic space technologies such as Canadarm, as well as the RADARSAT family of earth observation satellites. As a partner to the Government of Canada and other nations, MDA-built radar satellites have been collecting and providing data and insights about the health of our planet for decades.

According to the United Nations, illegal fishing is the planet's sixth-largest crime, with 20% of the over 90 million tonnes of fish caught globally each year being captured illegally, which steals billions from the global economy, damages precious ocean ecosystems and does serious harm to the food security of coastal nations. The important impact of the ocean ecosystems that surround all of us cannot be overstated. The real and devastating impact of the massive illegal activity taking place every day on our oceans cannot be overlooked and must not be left unchecked.

MDA's own RADARSAT-2 satellite has been used for monitoring fisheries for more than 15 years. In partnership with Canada's Department of Fisheries and Oceans and Global Affairs Canada, we have been utilizing our satellite technology to detect vessels engaged in illegal, unreported and unregulated fishing.

Radar satellites can take images of the earth, day or night, through all weather conditions, giving us complete insight into what is happening on our oceans' surfaces. By combining radar satellite imagery with our maritime insight analytics, we are able to locate and track fishing vessels that have switched off their location transmitting devices in an attempt to evade monitoring, control and surveillance.

A month ago, my team and I joined our Canadian government partners in the Philippines, where we trained 75 analysts from 14 Filipino government agencies and departments to use MDA dark vessel detection technology. This effort is a key part of Canada's Indo-Pacific strategy, with a focus on supporting oceans management initiatives delivered through Canadian-made satellite technology. At MDA, we know that the work we do in space can improve life here on earth and in our oceans, because we see the impact that our data has on daily life.

Our new commercial earth observation radar satellite constellation, CHORUS, is being designed with a specific focus on maritime surveillance applications, including dedicated vessel detection imaging capacity to collect an area equal to 40% of the global exclusive economic zones daily. In addition, CHORUS will support the detection of bilge water dumping, monitor coastal erosion and the effects of climate change, and support disaster response in the event of all marine oil spills, floods, earthquakes, hurricanes and volcanoes.

We hope that our contribution to the Canadian-led international efforts to stop illegal fishing will provide the world the tools and transparency to see precisely what is happening on our oceans. We are grateful for the partnership with the Government of Canada to prevent illegal fishing activity.

Thank you for the opportunity to talk with you today. I look forward to your questions.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Ms. Suchan. You're one minute under, but that's okay.

We'll move on to our first round of questions now, beginning with Mr. Small.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for coming out to take part in this important study.

First, I have a quick question for Mr. Collin.

I know that you're very involved in the pelagic fishing industry in Quebec. Have you heard any talk of mackerel being caught and sold commercially in the Gulf of St. Lawrence this past summer? There's “product of Canada” mackerel for sale right now, and it's dated 2023. Is there any possibility that the mackerel could have been caught by fishers illegally while that mackerel fishery is under moratorium?

[Ghislain Collin]

I don't know if I'm going to be able to answer those questions.

What I can confirm is that the fishers of the Regroupement des pêcheurs pélagiques professionnels du sud de la Gaspésie didn't catch that fish. I'm surprised to hear that. We're going to look into that. Personally, I haven't heard that a fleet could fish for mackerel. So you can assume it's illegal fishing.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

The product is being sold out of a Quebec lower north shore processor. I didn't know if you had any information to share with the committee about possible IUU catching of mackerel and selling it to those processors.

[Ghislain Collin]

I don't have any information about that. I'm not aware of that situation. If I had been, I would have mounted the barricades.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

Thank you.

Mr. Chair, my next question is for Mr. King.

I heard you reference China as being a big part of IUU fishing for elvers. How is this so? Why is China such a big player in this fishery?

[Stanley King]

We fish elvers and ship them live. We export them out of the country for growth in aquaculture facilities. Now, 100% of our fish, whether they're legally caught or illegally caught, are shipped to China. That's where they're grown out to market size.

They have an insatiable appetite for this protein source. They will buy as much as they can, and they want to protect this commodity. They need fresh elvers to come every year to make sure that they have enough for their population, and they don't really care how they do it.

They have partnered with organized crime and criminals. They will show up with bags of cash for black-market transactions, and they have basically undermined our fishery and our local economy. They're stealing tax dollars. They're stealing jobs. Our fisheries are getting shut down. The criminal element has basically threatened and intimidated a lot of the legal fishers to quit. We've had employees quit over this.

One employee in particular.... The industry, as a whole, employs a lot of women who have families. One fisher for us, who has been fishing for 15 years, has two small children under five. She makes her yearly salary in this industry, and has for 15 years, but she will not return to work this year, because she said it's too dangerous and she has to keep her kids in mind.

We have this transnational organization. It's global crime, and nobody will pay attention to it. We call the RCMP; we give tips and we call DFO's C and P—the enforcement wing of DFO—and nobody will do anything. It's costing Canadians jobs and tax dollars, and it's going to cost them this industry if DFO doesn't get its act together soon.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

I heard you say in your testimony that legal harvesters were outnumbered 10:1 by poachers.

Who were these poachers? Where were they from?

[Stanley King]

That's a good question, and I think you'll be surprised by the answer.

We all know that indigenous communities want greater access to this fishery, whether they have a licence or not, so that represents the bulk of the illegal and unlicensed fishers, but it's not just local indigenous actors. We've seen people from Maine....

I'm sorry. I should preface this by saying I fish in Nova Scotia, on the east coast. We're fishing next to people who have migrated to our coastline to fish from New Brunswick, from Maine and from Toronto. We've talked to people from B.C. who have told us, “We heard that we could make some quick money down here, and that there's no enforcement, so we've come to do that.”

It's like a cottage industry now. People will come and fish illegally, because they know there is no enforcement action.

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Coast of Bays—Central—Notre Dame, NL]

There's one more thing I want to ask. You said there were individuals advertising that they were buying elvers illegally. Do you have any names for the committee?

[Stanley King]

Absolutely. I submitted it in my appendix. I put the Facebook post on the last page of that appendix. It very clearly said when, where and for how much they would buy these illegal elvers. We submitted this to DFO conservation and protection prior to that, so that they could go and make a bust—or so I had hoped—but they did nothing.

[The Vice-Chair, Conservative, Mel Arnold]

Thank you, Mr. King.

That's your time, Mr. Small.

We'll now go to Mr. Cormier online.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to the witnesses for being with us today.

I'm sorry if my pronunciation isn't great, but this is for Ms. Suchan from MDA.

It's very nice to hear about what you guys are doing, in terms of detecting dark vessels. I was even surprised to hear that you are already doing some work with DFO.

I missed something somewhere. Can you give us a situation? For instance, how do you detect those vessels? Do they have some kind of chip in them, or whatever? Those vessels are going unnoticed. How do you detect them with the tools you have?

[Dr. Minda Suchan]

Radar satellite imagery is a well-known technology that we've been using for over 15 years. It's an active sensor technology from space. We transmit our radar down and detect the radar that is reflected up. Through this, we are able to see large ships on the ocean. We combine it, through our analytics platform, with other types of data, such as AIS data, which is tracking information that ships emit. We can combine that with the imagery we see. If people want to turn off the information signal about who and where they are, we are able to detect them through radar imagery. There are other types of data that we bring in as well.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

How many years have you been doing business—if I can say that—with DFO on illegal fishing?