Fisheries Committee on Nov. 18th, 2025

[Clifford Small, Conservative, Central Newfoundland, NL]

Thank you.

To Mr. McIsaac, do you agree with the NGO submissions that want to change subsection 6.1(1) to basically modify the precautionary approach, whereby fisheries would be conducted only if they're in a healthy zone?

[Jim McIsaac]

No, the act is already too prescriptive on the science side. It's great that we should be led by science—there's no doubt—but science takes time and, quite often, it's five or 10 years behind what's going on in the ecosystem. The ecosystem changes in a heartbeat.

If you look at the west coast, we have atmospheric rivers coming in and changing the ecosystem. We have blobs, heat waves and, then, on on top of that, we have the usual variability—the Pacific decadal oscillation, El Niño, La Niña. Those are happening all the time and, to keep up with that, science needs to be tempered with harvester knowledge from those who are on the water.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

I'm sorry. We're over time here.

Mr. Small, thank you very much.

With that, we're going to go to Monsieur Cormier for six minutes.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I thank the witnesses for being with us today.

Mr. St‑Pierre, your testimony was rather technical in nature. When we are reviewing certain provisions of an act, it's good to have the technical aspect, especially on the financial side. Some people may think you're trying to dilute, so to speak, the owner-operator provision.

Having said that, I see it in a different way. Let me give you some context. We know that the value of fishing licences, such as for lobster or crab, has increased considerably in recent years. In some regions, a lobster licence is worth over $1 million, and it can even be as high as $2 million. The value of a crab licence can vary from $15 million to $20 million.

Furthermore, we see that fishing licences are moving to other regions. Just recently, I heard that transfers could be made to the detriment of certain regions.

Considering that the value of fishing licences has increased considerably, it is becoming very difficult for the next generation of young people to obtain financing to acquire them. Witnesses who have appeared today and in previous meetings have been clear on that. Different groups are controlling things, and that can sometimes involve plants. Recently, we even heard about organized crime.

How do we ensure that the act continues to protect owner-operators?

How could we promote in the act a type of family agreement with people who want to acquire licences in order to keep those licences in our communities?

[Denis St-Pierre]

I'll answer in English, if that's okay with you.

First and foremost, the points I did make were technical, but they were meant to close loopholes, not the opposite.

My clients are mainly crab fishermen. I have a few lobster fishermen, but mostly they are crab fishers. These people want to have a long-term sustainable fishery. They do not want to have loopholes. They do not want to have anything that is grey. That's because, as with any loophole, the loophole will be closed.

As for the price, the issue is that we have inflated prices. The people who are buying cannot afford it. They probably know they can't, but the test is made by the DFO at the purchasing stage only. There's no follow-up afterward.

In the past, we used to have fishermen who would go bankrupt. Have you seen anyone going bankrupt recently? Since the Saulnier decision, which stated that you can seize the licence, no one is going bankrupt. They're being highly leveraged, and they don't go bankrupt. Why? It's because then the plant goes in. Maybe organized crime goes in—hopefully not with any of my clients—but there are some people backing up these transactions who are outside parties. It has to happen because the price is way too high.

The issue also is that the regulations right now, by not including nieces and nephews and a large family, are too restrictive as to who is a family member. With smaller families now, with one child or no children, maybe you want to transfer to your nephew, but it's so restrictive. You can't, so you have to sell to somebody else, and that's usually the highest bidder.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Thank you, Mr. St-Pierre.

I will go now to Mr. Teegee. I know you're part of the Assembly of First Nations. I think your director of fisheries is with you today.

I'm not sure if you saw the news report last week from Radio-Canada. It was in French. There's supposed to be another one coming regarding the sale of fish, social and ceremonial lobster, which under the Fisheries Act is not permitted. I'm not sure if you saw that news report and if you can maybe comment on that and what you think of it.

[Terry Teegee]

Well, this is a problem with the Department of Fisheries and Oceans. It's not fully implementing the Supreme Court of Canada ruling that set the right for first nations to fish commercially. We also have the Marshall decisions, which set first nations' right to a moderate livelihood.

As first nations, we're allowed to involve much more than just food, social, and ceremonial uses. Perhaps part of that is our economic development—

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

I don't want to cut you off, but just on the food, social and ceremonial part, under the act it is not permitted to sell the catch.

[Terry Teegee]

Yes. Certainly—

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

The news report was about fishing for food, social and ceremonial use. Those goods are supposed to go to the community to help community members, but they're being sold on the black market or whatever, and other people are taking advantage of this, and it's not allowed.

I totally understand that there is an agreement with first nations that they can fish commercially. This is okay, but I'm talking strictly about the food, social and ceremonial aspect. Shouldn't the resources go strictly to the community, and why are we still seeing the first nations community selling those catches that they're not supposed to sell?

[Terry Teegee]

I think it comes down to management and how management decisions are made in terms of food, social and ceremonial uses. If there's an allotment, certainly it should be up to the discretion of those first nations. This is the whole purpose of—

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Do you mean the discretion of first nations to sell food, social and ceremonial catches?

[Terry Teegee]

If that's their purview, I suppose it is.

[Serge Cormier, Liberal, Acadie—Bathurst, NB]

Under the law, it's not permitted to do so.

[Terry Teegee]

Okay, we can get into this argument, then.

The whole point of the United Nations declaration act is the recognition that first nations are governing bodies and they can govern their own affairs. The problem we have with the Government of Canada and DFO is there is no space for co-jurisdiction or co-management or an ability to agree upon the utilization of any fish species. That's a real problem, and henceforth the management of fisheries and fish species in this country is where we get into trouble. Therefore, you see what's going on on the east coast as well as on the west coast, where it's very similar.

It comes down to jurisdiction and how management occurs and how we govern our ability and desire to have not only the food, social and ceremonial uses but also the ability to sell the fish. That was the purpose of many court cases, such as Ahousaht and what have you.

[The Chair, Liberal, Patrick Weiler]

Thank you very much, Mr. Cormier.

I'm afraid we're well over time.

Mr. Deschênes, you have six minutes, please.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Chief Teegee, thank you very much for being with us.

I'll continue the discussion started by my colleague.

Over the past few weeks, a lot of witnesses have raised an issue. When they report problems, fishery officers don't intervene.

Have you also had a similar issue with fishery officers?

[Terry Teegee]

It has only been anecdotally, not personally. It's happening not only on the east coast but also on the west coast, where there are disputes on the water. We've seen it on the rivers, especially here with the many species of salmon that come back inland from the oceans, and it certainly is an issue.

We need jurisdiction and co-management so we can manage our own affairs, too. Quite simply, there are many first nations that have watchmen and guardians who can also implement first nations and indigenous laws that prohibit illegal fishing. That's a real problem, because we have many fish species that go very far north. I'm from Takla Nation, and we have—

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Thank you very much, Mr. Teegee.

I just want to go back to the beginning of your answer before continuing on with other aspects of what you said. I want to clarify something.

You said that you were aware of certain situations where first nations members asked fishery officers to intervene and they refused to do so.

Is that correct?

[Terry Teegee]

I'm confused by the question.

Are you talking about interventions from fisheries agents who are impeding first nations fisheries? Is that the question?

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

Are you aware of situations, as mentioned by other witnesses, where fishery officers have been asked to intervene in illegal fishing and where there has been no response from them?

[Terry Teegee]

I haven't heard of any out here on the west coast from the first nations perspective. Are you asking if there was a request from the first nations? Is that what you're getting at? Certainly, we know there have been non-first nations requests for intervention, which have been very similar. There have been interactions in the past between first nations and agents, to be clear, but I don't know about this here.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

In your community, is illegal fishing a problem?

[Terry Teegee]

On some level, according to DFO law, there has been illegal fishing, especially in some of the remote areas where it's very difficult to monitor.

[Alexis Deschênes, Bloc, Gaspésie—Les Îles-de-la-Madeleine—Listuguj, QC]

What would you like to see happen when it comes to that illegal fishing?