Evidence of meeting #21 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aid.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Greenhill  President, Canadian International Development Agency
Ed Broadbent  As an Individual
Gerry Barr  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council for International Co operation

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

This is meeting number 21 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Trade, Wednesday, October 18. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), we are continuing our study on democratic development.

This is the committee's major study on Canada's role in international support for democratic development around the world. Today we are very pleased to have appear before us the Hon. Josée Verner, the Minister of International Cooperation. This is the minister's second appearance before our committee. We appreciate her responding to our invitation again and sharing her time with us. Today she will provide us with considerable information about the work we are doing in our democratic development study.

We also appreciate the work of the Canadian International Development Agency witnesses in accompanying the minister, CIDA President Robert Greenhill, and Stephen Wallace, vice-president of the policy branch. I think there are a number of other people in the background helping.

We welcome you, Madame Minister. As you know, we have the opening statement by the minister, and then we will go into the first round, during which committee members will have ten minutes to question you.

We welcome you again, and the floor is yours. Madame.

3:35 p.m.

Louis-Saint-Laurent Québec

Conservative

Josée Verner ConservativeMinister of International Cooperation

Tthank you, Mr. Chairman.

Let me begin by thanking the Committee for inviting me here today. Your study is especially relevant to the work we do at CIDA, because I think we all recognize that freedom, democracy, human rights and the rule of law are essential for development. Simply put, accountable states are more stable and more likely to deliver results to their citizens. As a recent book by US expert Morton Halperin has noted, “citizens living in democracies live a decade longer; 50 per cent fewer of their children die before their fifth birthday; and twice as many children attend secondary school...”

Democratic governance is about free and fair elections. But it is also much more. For an international development agency like CIDA, we see four essential elements. The first is the existence of freedom and democracy based upon strong electoral, legislative and party institutions that are rooted in a supportive democratic culture including an active civil society and vibrant, free media.

The second is the rule of law, with fair and effective laws, accessible and timely legal institutions, and an impartial judiciary.

The third is the presence of human rights practices and institutions within the State and held to account by an active civil society.

And finally, the fourth is public sector institutions that manage the economy and public funds and deliver key social services such as health and education effectively — and without corruption.

This is an enormous project. It matters to us because we know that democratic governance abroad contributes to our own security and prosperity at home. Our commitment and investment to it have been growing ever since the fall of the Berlin Wall. And progress is being made. You can see this in the handout information that CIDA officials have prepared for you. We can also see this in the Freedom House's Annual State of Freedom Index, which measured a 23 per cent gain in global democratic practices between 1975 and 2000.

We saw a wave across Eastern Europe in the early 1990s. What we need to learn more about is how, after difficult post-colonial transitions Africa is experiencing its own new wave of democratization. For example, Freedom House reports that 62 per cent of African countries demonstrated progress in freedom and democracy between 1990 and 2005. We have to continue with our resolve in this area because there is still more progress to be made. We must help to deepen the new democracies, to make them full democracies. And we must help them to survive by helping them deliver the economic and social goods that citizens demand.

What have we achieved? CIDA makes the largest investments in democratic governance abroad of any Canadian organization. These amounted last year to over $375 million. Our Handout offers many examples that illustrate the range of countries, projects and partners we have supported.

Let me highlight just a few of these. We have supported many elections, including key ones in Afghanistan, Haiti and in the Democratic Republic of the Congo. And through our support to Canada's Parliamentary Centre, we have followed elections up and helped build stronger parliaments in Africa and Asia. Our colleague John Williams has built upon this base in his work to engage parliamentarians in fighting corruption. Our work with court administrators in Ethiopia and judges in the Caribbean, the Philippines and China have all helped to strengthen the rule of law. Our support has strengthened official human rights institutions in Indonesia and Bolivia. In Columbia, it has helped build local civil society groups which protect the rights of children against violence and in Bolivia employment rights of women. Through Montreal-based Equitas, we have trained and networked human rights promoters in 75 countries.

Our support for public sector institutions has meant that India now has a more modern tax system, that Ghana is gaining a more coordinated public administration and that Mali has a strong and assertive auditor general.

In some countries we are strengthening our aid effectiveness by using multiple projects to achieve an overarching goal. For example, in Ukraine, CIDA contributed to governance reforms by helping strengthen the policy capacity of the public sector and foster democratic awareness among youth, public servants, the judiciary and law enforcement personnel.

CIDA helped Ukrainian civil society ensure fair media coverage and increase voter participation. And, as you know, we supported observers for the crucial rerun of the second round of the 2004 presidential elections and for the 2006 parliamentary elections.

We are now working with the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe in an effort to strengthen Ukraine's Central Election Commission. We see even greater challenges in fragile States like Haiti, where reconstruction efforts will fail without establishing the democratic institutions that can ensure security, the rule of law and respect for human rights.

With its international partners, Canada is helping the Haitian people and their institutions to meet those challenges. Recently, we helped secure credible elections. Millions of ballots were distributed — sometimes on horseback — to all corners of the country, a long-term international observer mission was organized, hundreds of local observers were trained and 106 Canadian observers were dispatched. As well, more than three million national identity cards were delivered to citizens, establishing the basis of a civil registry, a key ingredient for long-term stability.

Before and beyond the elections, high-level technical expertise was provided to the presidency and the Prime Minister's Office, ensuring a smooth transition and a strong beginning for the new government. Much remains to be done and our commitment to Haiti is long term. We will continue to invest in strong and stable public institutions that serve the Haitian people. These include the Parliament and key ministries such as planning, finance and justice.

What have we learned and how are we responding? I believe our investments are achieving results. And I want to share with you some of our key lessons learned on how we can work better. First, and because we have learned just how important democratic governance is to the overall development agenda, we will be doing more of it. In future, all of CIDA'S major country programs will assess and support democratic governance.

A second lesson is that achieving democratic governance is a complex, knowledge-based endeavour. It requires a comprehensive strategy and vision. It also requires a concerted and coordinated effort — nationally and globally.

As Minister McKay noted in his presentation, democratic governance is a foreign policy priority for the Government of Canada. I hope that your committee's efforts in the coming months will help us in confirming several other vital lessons. We must recognize that one size does not fit all and that change comes gradually, over the long term.

While democratic values are universal, the institutions that express them will be unique to each country context. Another important lesson is that the needs of fragile States will differ from those of stable or middle-income countries. Learning these lessons have helped our partner organizations shape a unique Canadian approach to democracy assistance that is recognized and welcomed for its adaptability to different contexts and stages of democratic governance. Your endorsement will strengthen their resolve to continue.

It will help us determine our areas of national strength that should guide our work in the future.

Democratic governance is essential for progress in developing countries and for ending poverty in the long run. I'm pleased to have had this opportunity to highlight the contributions that Canada, through CIDA and its partners, is making to this global challenge. I am also encouraged that you have undertaken this study. I welcome the careful consideration and fresh perspective that your study will bring to the work you do. I wish you the best in your remaining work and look forward to hearing your recommendations.

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Madam Minister.

We will go into the first round.

Mr. Patry, you have ten minutes.

3:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. I will be sharing my time with my colleague, Mr. Martin.

Thank you, Mr. Greenhill and Ms. Verner. Given that we have very little time, I will put my questions to you immediately.

Minister, you know that democracy can only happen if all the necessary ingredients for success are there. Our troops in Kandahar are perfectly capable of dealing with security. They do it admirably. However, the other essential ingredients for basic development, including access to drinking water, electricity, women's rights and human rights, education and health care, also have to be present. Practically speaking, what is your department doing to ensure that all these ingredients necessary for sustainable development in Afghanistan or Kandahar are in place?

Furthermore, last Monday, when he appeared before a Senate committee, General Howard stated that the amounts allocated for development in Kandahar had not been sent and that our armed forces had to use their own budget to help the people. Why is it that the funds allocated to development in Kandahar were not released? How do you measure success in a region like Kandahar?

Thank you.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Patry.

Ms. Verner.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Thank you for your question, Mr. Patry.

I will endeavour to provide you with an answer that covers both of your questions.

None of the funding earmarked for Kandahar is being withheld. I can assure you that each and every one dollar of the $100 million provided in the budget is being spent in Afghanistan. We expect to spend $15 million in Kandahar between now and the end of the year.

As you know, CIDA believes in working in partnership with the people of Afghanistan. This approach has meant that barely 1 per cent of our projects have been attacked and destroyed by the Taliban. We firmly believe that working with Afghanis is the best way to guarantee the security of our projects.

As you know, the situation in Kandahar is more difficult. In order to allow humanitarian workers in field to carry out their mission, it is imperative that we work closely with security and defence services. Allow me to give you some concrete examples of what we do: we build roads, bridges and wells; we have provided women with sewing machines so that they can set up small businesses; and, together with the Montreal-based organization called Rights and Democracy, with which I am sure you are familiar, we have provided training to various groups of women. In addition, I recently announced $5 million in funding to be used to vaccinate 7 million children — this will particularly benefit Kandahar. We have also built schools.

Microcredit is a useful and important tool. It allows women to take control of their future. One hundred and fifty thousand of the 193,000 Afghanis who were granted microcredit loans were women. These women opened small bakeries, craft shops, sewing work shops, etc. These are examples of the type of aid that we are providing all over Afghanistan; and, once again, I would reiterate that no money is withheld by CIDA.

It is important to understand that we develop projects in partnership with the local population in order to have their support and ensure sustainability. Our intent is not to impose our views and ideas, but to help the people of Afghanistan. Projects are developed in response to the wishes of the local population.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

How is the time?

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have five minutes remaining.

Mr. Martin is next.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Merci beaucoup, Madame Verner et Monsieur Greenhill, for being here today.

I'm having a very difficult time, Madame Minister, with your line of interventions. You have said that funds for CIDA provided to the government are not earmarked for Kandahar. You've also said that the government cannot track aid to Afghanistan, yet in your testimony just now, you just said that all the money is spent in Kandahar.

How do you know that the money you have allocated through CIDA is getting to Kandahar, when you've also said repeatedly in public that you can't track the money that's going to Afghanistan, that you don't know where it is?

I think the real tragedy we're finding is that our troops are out there giving their lives--and you know, Minister, that our troops are out there putting their lives on the line in order for development to occur behind that--but from General Howard and others we learn the aid is not getting there. The Taliban strength is increasing, poppy growth is increasing, the Taliban's control over the country is increasing, and the aid is not getting on the ground.

How do you know that all of the money has been spent in Kandahar? Tell us how many schools CIDA has funded in the Kandahar province.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Madam Minister.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

You certainly covered a lot of ground in your comments! I would remind you that in 2004, if I am not mistaken, you argued that Canada should be 110 per cent behind the mission in Afghanistan. Now is not the time to change tack.

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Excuse me, if I may interrupt you, I asked very specific questions.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Martin, let her finish her answer.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Mr. Martin, I would have liked to make certain remarks myself, but I did not want to interrupt you. I would therefore ask that you extend me the same courtesy.

During a recent interview, one of the French directors of the World Bank congratulated CIDA on its effective management and tracking of the money spent in Afghanistan. We were not the ones to make such a claim. This is what was said by a senior official at the World Bank, and I believe it is worth underscoring.

Furthermore, I never said that we were unable to track the money being spent in Afghanistan. Our whole approach is based precisely on being able to assure our government that taxpayers' dollars are well managed and spent where they were intended to be spent.

As announced, $100 million will be spent in Afghanistan between now and 2011. Projects will be launched as and when they are chosen by the people of Afghanistan. We estimate that we will spend $15 million in the Kandahar region alone between now and the end of the year. I would reiterate that it is very important to understand...

3:50 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

How do you know that's happening? The problem is, Minister, we don't know.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Martin, just let her finish.

3:50 p.m.

Conservative

Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

We are not imposing our way of thinking on the Afghanis. We let them decide for themselves which projects they want to undertake. I would point out, for example, that there are women sitting on district councils. This allows them to have their say as to which projects should be given priority in their district.

This approach has proven so successful that, last week, we announced an additional $2 million so that it can be extended to two other districts in Kandahar.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Mr. Martin, you have about thirty seconds.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Keith Martin Liberal Esquimalt—Juan de Fuca, BC

Minister, I'll quote you in a letter to the defence committee.

The funds that CIDA provides to national-level programs are not earmarked for Kandahar province, as we support the aid principle...making it difficult for CIDA to track its funds to the provincial level....

The reality is that you don't know, and the general on the ground doesn't know, that the funds are getting there. In fact, they know that the funds are not getting on the ground, and this is the central problem we have. Our government's funding for aid projects in CIDA is a failure, and our troops need that changed now.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Martin.

Madame Verner, do you want to reply?

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

Josée Verner Conservative Louis-Saint-Laurent, QC

Yes, I do.

It is utterly unacceptable for the member to say that CIDA's program in Afghanistan is a failure. I would remind him that his government only approved $50 million in funding, and that it was supposed to end. His government voted for an initial budget of $100 million, which was to be reduced over time. That was his government's way of supporting Afghanistan. The member spoke eloquently about supporting the mission in Afghanistan, but the funding was supposed to decrease.

The Conservatives, on the other hand, have maintained funding levels and have extended funding until 2011.

I am going to ask my deputy minister to answer the more technical aspects of your question.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Very quickly. We're over time right now.

3:55 p.m.

Robert Greenhill President, Canadian International Development Agency

I'll make two quick points.

There are a number of specific projects dedicated exclusively to Kandahar, such as $18 million for alternate livelihoods; $2 million for the national solidarity program, the confidence in government program; and $5 million for polio.

In addition, there are a number of national programs on which we have now worked with the Afghan government to be able to disaggregate them by province. Members will be happy to know that in the national solidarity program, for example, we've been able to identify seven out of seventeen districts that benefit from it in Kandahar. So we're now able to disaggregate the national programs down to the provincial level through close cooperation with the Afghan government.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Greenhill.

You have 10 minutes, Ms. Barbot.

3:55 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Thank you, Minister.

As you are aware, many reports show that the international community faces many challenges in Afghanistan, particularly as regards development, poverty relief and governance. Given that we are studying democratic development, I feel I must ask you some questions on Canada's reconstruction and aid strategy for Afghanistan.

Firstly, we are having a little difficulty coming to grips with the figures. How much money is CIDA planning to spend on development aid for Afghanistan for 2001-2002?