Evidence of meeting #21 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was aid.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Robert Greenhill  President, Canadian International Development Agency
Ed Broadbent  As an Individual
Gerry Barr  President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council for International Co operation

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We'll ask that. Mr. Patry's concern was that we have some of those figures brought forward to our committee. I think that's fair and we can do that. It's not really a point of order; it's a request. We can do that.

We want to thank you, Minister, for appearing today. We want to keep our committee focused on democratic development, and I think you've attempted to do that today, so we applaud you for coming. Thank you.

We're going to suspend for about two minutes and allow the new witnesses to take their seats.

4:36 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We'll call this meeting back to order.

We are continuing on, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), the study on democratic development. This is meeting 21.

We are again pleased to have appear before us as an individual, the Hon. Ed Broadbent. Mr. Broadbent has a long history with democratic development groups. He has served as the first president to the International Centre for Human Rights and Democratic Development and is also a co-chair of the Canadian Democracy and Corporate Accountability Commission.

It's always a pleasure to see him stalking the halls of Parliament, and we appreciate very much his appearing before us today to share his information.

Also in this hour we have Gerry Barr, president and CEO of the Canadian Council for International Co-operation. The Canadian Council for International Co-operation is a coalition of Canadian voluntary sector organizations working globally to achieve sustainable human development. CCIC seeks to end global poverty and to promote social justice and human dignity. We thank you for making the time to appear.

It's not your first time here. We welcome you both back.

Mr. Broadbent, we'll begin with you. Welcome back. We look forward to what you have to say.

4:36 p.m.

Ed Broadbent As an Individual

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. It's a pleasure for me to be back here with former colleagues from, as one says, all sides of the House of Commons.

I want in my brief opening comments to deal with some observations about democratic development—if you like, a framework for a modern democratic state: what we should be doing as one of those modern democratic states who help facilitate the development of democracy.

I'll begin with a series, more or less, of assertions, for which I apologize, as opposed to developed arguments, in a sense. But then I hope we can discuss these points.

For me, in the last fifty years there have been two transformational developments in the democratic world and indeed in the globe. One is the post-1945 period in which the wartime leaders—Churchill, Roosevelt, and Attlee— launched a framework for global development to take place after Second World War, made the key decisions during the war, and set up the key institutional structure that held for many decades. This included the creation of the UN itself, the Bretton Woods agreements that in part were to deal with financial equity on a global basis, and third, the Universal Declaration of Human Rights that was adopted in 1948. These were all considered to be part of a package, in a post-war period after the Second World War, that would hopefully avoid the tragedy of the 1930s and put in place, if you like, a framework for what we would now call global democratic development.

The other transformational period, I would say, began really at the end of the Cold War, and we're living with it. I want to pick up my specific suggestions, as a matter of fact, based on experience since the beginning of the end of the Cold War; that is to say, beginning with the 1990s.

I vividly remember the years immediately following the collapse of the Berlin Wall and the coming to an end of the Cold War. The heads of almost all democratic governments proclaimed at the time that the subsequent decade would see the global spread of democracy and of market-based economies.

Unlike the World War II democratic leaders, however, they put virtually exclusive emphasis on creating a global market. They didn't trouble themselves with these other major institutions I've already talked about that the wartime leaders put in place—that is, the major political dimension. In fact, many of the democratic leaders early in the 1990s who should have known better, and some who did, blithely asserted that human rights, the core values of a democratic civil society, could be relied upon to emerge willy-nilly on their own after the core institutions of a market-based economy were put in place.

Based on my six years of experience as head of Rights and Democracy, and a long time—some would say too long—in federal politics, I would like now to offer some suggestions on what can and should be done to further democratic development in a world in which the majority still live in authoritarian societies.

First, in addition to protecting narrowly defined national interests, our foreign policy must help foster the development of democracy, and this should be done by persuasion, trade, and aid, and by the development of globally enforceable international human rights law.

Second, this can best be achieved by a combination of bilateral and multilateral state-to-state democratic institution-building, and in particular through assistance to human rights-oriented NGOs in countries where they are allowed to exist. In 1970 there were only 55 international NGOs at a UN-organized conference in Tehran. There are now more than 2,000 such organizations. Preferably assistance to NGOs within a developing country should be funded by other international NGOs working at arm's length from any government.

Third, assistance in the peaceful development of democracy within any state by outsiders can only be provided when the government of that state allows it. This has happened in recent years in a number of quite diverse nations. I'm only going to give you some examples that as president of Rights and Democracy I happen to have been—not as a politician, but as the head of that institute—directly involved in: South Korea, Thailand, Tanzania, Pakistan, Guatemala, and Mexico.

Fourth, at no time should the priority of agendas for any category of rights implementation by a developing country be determined by outsiders, whether these outsiders be other NGOs or established democratic governments.

In the 1990s, we at Rights and Democracy, with, I want to emphasize, money provided by the Government of Canada and with the support of all parties then in the House of Commons, worked in developing countries with other NGOs from Sweden, Germany, Norway, and the U.S. and helped to implement the rights of women, indigenous peoples, workers, and human rights organizations themselves in Thailand, Guatemala, Mexico, El Salvador, Tanzania, Pakistan, Egypt, and Indonesia. At all times, specific rights, priorities, and agendas for these countries were set by the indigenous NGOs or the governments themselves, not by us.

For example, in supporting women's rights in Pakistan, we and our international partners did not propose an agenda appropriate for women either here in Canada or in Europe. Rather, we supported the priorities established by that country's leading women reformers, such as Asma Jahangir. By the way, that courageous woman describes herself as a Muslim, woman, lawyer, and human rights activist.

Similarly, work in recent years with Mexican NGOs--and the government, eventually--on election-related rights proceeded according to their priorities again, not ours. It helped to produce free and fair elections a few years ago and the legitimate transition of power earlier this year.

We worked for years in Tanzania and finally in partnership, in this case, with the Canadian high commissioner. Our high commissioner at that time was a remarkable woman, very imaginative. We cooperated with the then one-party government, other NGOs, other newly emerging parties, and a newly independent media to shape a practical agenda that led peacefully to a transition to a multi-party democracy in Tanzania.

The fifth point relates to how not to do it.

There is only one country I wanted to talk about in terms of how not to do these things.

Mr. Chrétien was right about Iraq. The imperial hubris of the present administrations in Washington and London may well have included a deeply believed in agenda for democratic reform. Even if this were the case, military invasion, whether here or elsewhere, to make it happen is a deeply mistaken court of action. As a consequence of this western violation of international law, thousands of lives have been lost, a nation's infrastructure has been ruined, terrorism has increased, and international and regional religious conflicts have worsened. Ironically, the major national beneficiary of this has been Iran.

If there is an emergent so-called parliamentary democracy in Iraq in the months ahead, it will be characterized by profound mistrust and deep religious and regional tensions. When it comes to tolerance and stability, Germany's Weimar Republic, in retrospect, would be seen as a model of civility and goodwill by comparison. There can be little doubt that the war in Iraq, waged predominantly by white Christians in the name of democracy and human rights, has besmirched the good name of each in the eyes of millions of Muslims and others throughout the world.

I'll go on to my sixth point.

We in the developed democracies need to remind ourselves of the multi-faceted and multi-partisan roots of our own rights. As I have noted, as a follow-up to one of Churchill's coalition cabinet decisions in the 1940s, following the war, he and Roosevelt ensured that a wide range of rights were to find their place as part of a new postwar order. These rights ultimately became an integral part of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights. First drafted by a Canadian, John Humphrey, they ultimately became the Universal Declaration of Human Rights in 1948.

The crucial point here is that when added to the political and civil rights, the new social and economic rights became the core of the modern welfare states that flourished in the North Atlantic democracies for decades after the war. As Tony Judt, one of the world's leading historians, has recently and brilliantly argued in his book Postwar, such welfare states, with a mix of political and social rights, were largely responsible for the disappearance of parties on the extreme left and right and for the increasing degree of a sense of social justice and stability that came to characterize most of the advanced democracies.

It's then our own modern history that should guide us in understanding why economic globalization is a mixed blessing for democracy. As the World Bank has recently noted, amidst growing prosperity for many, there are also millions in abject poverty in Latin America, the Middle East, Asia, and Africa. Large numbers of them believe that established democracies no longer care about social justice. They see our governments and elites as acting too often in collusion with their own elites, being more interested in their natural resources and property rights than in the civil and social rights of the vast majority.

The fact that the President of Venezuela could be applauded by many in the UN's General Assembly in September for calling President Bush the devil should be seen in part as symptomatic of a widespread sense of injustice and not merely as a rejection of Mr. Bush's invasion of Iraq.

The depth of inequality and the absence of social reform in so much of the world can and does produce romantic, extremist, and intolerant religious and secular movements. It happened in recent European history. It can repeat itself again, only this time globally.

I think I'll conclude there, Mr. Chairman. Thank you.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Broadbent.

Mr. Barr.

October 18th, 2006 / 4:45 p.m.

Gerry Barr President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council for International Co operation

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

It's great to be here again. It's always a pleasure to be in front of the committee talking about the kinds of things with which you are regularly seized.

As most committee members will know, the council is an organization of about 100 non-governmental organizations working to end global poverty and ensure sustainable human development worldwide.

The committee members, of course, know that there are lots of things that can be said about democratic development. It can be about electoral politics and balloting, judiciaries, the recognition and implementation of the rights of citizens. It can be about economic, social, and cultural rights. It can be about lots of stuff.

For those of us who work in the international development cooperation field, who are preoccupied with questions of global poverty, democratic development very often goes to the role of citizens' organizations and social movements in the fight against poverty. And it's a key role. There are more than a billion people around the world living in absolute poverty; a further 1.5 billion who are desperately poor by any reasonable standard, living on less than $2 a day; and together, their combined number approaches half the population of the planet.

The thing about this poverty is that it's fatal. Every day 50,000 people die of poverty-related illnesses and insults readily avoided. More than 800 million people go hungry every day of the year. So the resources to address global poverty, through levels of aid, equitable trading arrangements, and cancellation of the debts of the world's poorest countries, matter immensely. What matters equally are the approaches taken by donor states around the world, as well as by developing country states, to democratic development and human rights.

The Nobel Prize-winning development economist, Amartya Sen, demonstrates pretty incontrovertibly that there will be success in ending poverty when the rights of the vulnerable and the poor are recognized in the face of very highly unequal cultural, social, economic, and political power relations. And with women forming the majority of the poor and the vulnerable, issues of gender equality and processes for women to claim their rights are central, absolutely key, to tackling poverty reduction. Absent these things, we will certainly, but certainly, lose the fight against poverty.

The millennium development goals roll up, in list form, a number of targets from a host of global meetings that occurred throughout the nineties under the auspices of the United Nations to chart social objectives for the planet. They articulate some of the more achievable goals developed at those meetings as an action agenda for the first years of this century. But whether it's about hunger or potable water or access to basic education or HIV/AIDS or malaria or tuberculosis, what is at the heart of it is the question of rights and the circumstances of those whose rights have been denied.

That's why people sometimes talk about the millennium development goals as the minimum development goals. It's a cautionary comment meant to signal that while it is important to set out targets, there is no list, really, that captures poverty. Looked at through a human rights lens, there is no single set of needs that, when materially met, can be said to settle the question of poverty. Poverty is all about impoverishment. It's about a process, and inequality and marginalization are the twin engines of poverty. If our aim is to beat it, equality and inclusion are the ways to go.

Civil society organizations working with a human rights framework know that effective sustainable development change will not take place in the absence of engaged citizens. That's the key ingredient. It is the thing without which success will not occur. And just as in Canada, as members of this committee know well, actions to counter poverty are inherently a political process.

Government actions, national political will, and building the capacity of governments are certainly terribly important, but they are in and of themselves insufficient to support sustained development impact. You get the full picture when you include political and social movement organizing a direct engagement on the part of those who are living in poverty or who are otherwise marginalized by their society. It's the other part and the key part, the crucial part, of democratic development.

In the course of your study of democratic development, it is almost certain that you have run into the Paris Declaration of March 2005, in which donor states agree to approaches to development assistance that help to establish ownership of development programs in developing country economies themselves, that align donor policies with beneficiary state policies; there's an agreement to harmonize, to manage for measurable results, to in some measure accept mutual responsibility and accountability in the development process as between donor and developing country states.

Important as they are, these new donor strategies focus pretty single-mindedly, almost exclusively, on donor-government relationships, aiming to express institutional reforms in both donor and beneficiary states for a more effective and efficient aid system.

For civil society groups, the final question has to be how much aid actually reaches the poor and mobilizes them to address their own problems. That's the key question for measuring aid effectiveness, and it is a question that the Paris commitments have yet to answer. So Paris is important when it comes to donor practices, but it's more about aid than it is about development.

It's when we get to this development vision side of things that issues such as the role of citizens, their social movements, the way in which aid can be used to mobilize people's participation, come increasingly to the fore; it's where democratic development arises. And it's a very good thing, therefore, that states are now tracking to a key meeting in Ghana in 2008, where the role of civil society actors is going to come in for some very special scrutiny and the question of the inclusion of this important piece of the puzzle will be raised.

In this connection, I think it's very worth noting that this committee, in its previous incarnation during the last Parliament, reached some key conclusions when it gave its twelfth report to the House of Commons. The committee called not only for increased resources to attain the internationally accepted standard of 0.7% of GNI as an aid level, but also called for steps to improve accountability and the quality of Canada's aid, with all parties agreeing—all sides of the House. The committee cited the need for aid legislation that would ensure that, beyond humanitarian assistance, aid spending would be targeted specifically at poverty reduction with an approach that takes account of Canada's human rights commitments and a rights-based approach to development, and that aid delivery would occur that takes respectful account of the perspectives of those actually living in poverty.

The committee also said that in order to ensure aid effectiveness, CIDA should take account of the particular contributions of civil society organizations both in Canada and in the developing world overseas.

So the committee's report to Parliament, which got unanimous support in the House of Commons, puts democratic development and a rights-based approach at the centre of the development paradigm.

I want to say congratulations for having got it right in the last Parliament, and I encourage you very much to keep on this track as you continue to look at these questions of democratic development, which are so key to poverty eradication.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Barr.

We will begin the first round of questioning. It is a seven-minute round. We'll begin with Mr. Wilfert and Mr. Alghabra, in a split, or however they want to work it, but beginning with Mr. Wilfert.

4:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, gentlemen, for coming.

Mr. Broadbent, in 1999, the UN Commission on Human Rights, now the Human Rights Council, passed a resolution on the promotion of the right to democracy. In 2000, as you know, the UN at the Millennium Summit declared that we should spare no effort to promote democracy and strengthen the rule of law.

I have generally been supportive of projects that CIDA has done, and I'll give you an example that I'd like you to comment on.

To promote democracy I believe the best way to do it is from the ground up, and obviously at the village level, particularly in places such as Asia, such as Cambodia. We were very much involved, as you know, in the commune elections. What has happened, however, is that it appears to be a scattered approach, because we were there and we supported them, but the attention has drifted away. What is happening now is we see a government in Cambodia, Hun Sen's government, that has basically stifled both public dissent and human rights.

Do you have any advice for this committee in terms of how we could be in for the long haul? What kinds of approaches should we be looking at for monitoring sustained development of human rights in countries where we're going to spend the dollars to do that?

I think you eloquently pointed out that in Iraq, a top-down approach does not work. I'd be interested in your comments.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

That's a good question, Mr. Wilfert.

Mr. Broadbent.

5 p.m.

As an Individual

Ed Broadbent

Do you have another question you'd like to ask instead?

5 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I do, Mr. Broadbent, but I'll only give you one for now.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Broadbent, it's sounding more like question period.

5 p.m.

As an Individual

Ed Broadbent

It's a totally reasonable question and my answer is that there is no easy answer, no guarantee.

As I mentioned, we did a lot of work, we being Rights and Democracy. It is a very interesting model of a government-funded but an arm's-length institution supported, as I said, by all parties. We worked predominately with NGOs in developing countries. We did some work with governments too, but mostly that was done by CIDA and not by us. We worked in Thailand. We did a lot of work, and Thailand has made a lot of progress, but as we know, there's been a military coup there. It's ongoing work and an ongoing project.

The two big names in history who have written about democracy are Alexis de Tocqueville and John Stuart Mill. No one has done anything better than they did in the 19th century. What they talked about that is fundamental, and it is what Gerry Barr has talked about here in modern terms, is the crucial role of a democratic civil society, a whole range of freedoms that become ingrained in the practices and institutions, if you like, below the superstructure of elections. And that takes time. It really does take time.

I read an article recently on the Crusades and was reminded with great horror how systematically Jews were exterminated, and Muslims were exterminated, and so on, in the name of good Christian action. We went through a long period ourselves. We--those from a Christian, white, Anglo-Saxon background I'm saying here--went through a long evolution when we were, in modern terms, quite barbaric. To get this evolution of groups that will be tolerant, civil, and respect individual rights as well as social rights takes time, and there is no magic answer.

Part of what Gerry Barr and the minister have said in terms of general principles and the role of CIDA, what Gerry Barr has said about the importance of civil society, and what I've said all mesh, in my view, if they're carried out. What we musn't have is a top-down approach using force, certainly military force, or imposing our rights agenda. They have to come to it, if you like, the groups within their society, where they are free to act. Somebody mentioned Cuba, China, and these other countries and what we are doing there. We're not doing anything there because they won't allow anything. They won't allow the Rights and Democracy type of organization there.

I've taken some time to answer the question to say that there is no foolproof solution. Democracy is an evolving thing and it's very important, but what is crucial, though, is the civil society structure. It's not just the electioneering or periodic elections. It's getting the institutions to allow the free flow of rights in society.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Bryon Wilfert Liberal Richmond Hill, ON

I guess it's the old issue of butter or bullets, and it's choices. In any event, I'll turn it over to my colleague.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Alghabra, you have about a minute and a half.

5 p.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Mr. Broadbent, thank you so much for coming here.

I have two questions, and I'll try to make them as concise as possible. First, given the fact that Prime Minister Harper declared Afghanistan the centrepiece of our development aid and foreign policy, how, from your experience, do you evaluate our performance over there, given that you also mentioned the risks of using military means to deliver aid?

The second question is a broader question: how do we avoid the risk of applying double standards when we are providing or promoting aid? We heard on our trip last week in Europe that some countries know they are committing to double standards. How do we avoid doing that?

5:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Ed Broadbent

I want to deal with that—another “easy question”. What do you mean, in this context, by double standards? What do you mean there?

5:05 p.m.

Liberal

Omar Alghabra Liberal Mississauga—Erindale, ON

It's that we select a country to provide aid to, while there are other countries in greater need and receiving absolutely no aid.

5:05 p.m.

As an Individual

Ed Broadbent

Okay. I don't have an easy answer to deal with that. Again, the institution Gerry Barr works at would probably give you a better.... I mean, we could do as some countries do, direct all our aid just to the poorest countries. I don't have an easy answer to that.

I think there are some reasons for us.... We're with countries we have historical associations with—some French speaking, some English speaking—and there are certain trade patterns. We may have contacts and historical connections with certain countries that we don't have with others, and it may well make sense for us to choose them perhaps over others. But basically, I guess my general criterion is that those in greatest need should get our greatest priority.

On the Afghanistan question, I'm kind of with you. I'm glad I'm not a politician today; I don't have to have an answer, in one sense.

Initially I supported the action, in an entirely different situation from Iraq—entirely different. You had a barbarous government that was supporting a barbarous international terrorist movement. There was a response to this—and one, I repeat, that I personally thought was appropriate.

Then you raised the question that we're in there now, and how do we deal with that terrible dilemma? On one hand, my friend and colleague Alexa was asking questions about the ratio of aid spending to defence spending. I don't know what the answer to that is, and I also frankly don't know what it should be, because I know there's both a security dimension that has to be dealt with and an aid dimension.

What Afghanistan illustrates, if I can put it a different way, in one sense with the advantage of 20/20 hindsight, is the wisdom of George Bush senior in the Gulf War. In the Gulf War, Mr. Bush senior was urged by a number of his, in this context, American conservative colleagues, some hawkish, to continue into Baghdad after Saddam Hussein was pushed out of Kuwait. He asked the appropriate question: “What'll I do when I get there?”—a very serious question. And he didn't go, because if he had gone, then there would have been under Bush senior the mess we now see in Iraq today.

Canada is involved, with our NATO partners and with UN sanction, in trying to square that circle of helping to create security so that we can put the emphasis on aid. And we're doing it in a country that, historically speaking—and I don't want to be misunderstood in this—is from the standpoint of democratic development behind even where Iraq was originally. There are much more complex and historically medieval structures in Afghanistan.

I just think it's a problem without a ready answer.

5:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Broadbent. We won't try to find one.

Madame Barbot, you have seven minutes.

5:05 p.m.

Bloc

Vivian Barbot Bloc Papineau, QC

Mr. Broadbent, Mr. Barr, thank you very much for being here today. After our meeting with the minister, it is somewhat refreshing to talk to people who answer our questions to help us better understand the issues, and who try to find solutions. After all, asking questions in the interests of making progress is part of the committee's job. To my mind, we are not here to criticize what Canada is doing, but, rather, to ensure that we really understand the facts. That is why I am so pleased that you are here today.

You both said that the involvement of civil society in international aid is crucial and can contribute to the success of a mission. I would therefore like to ask you a question about a specific group of civil society that Canada appears to want to further involve, particularly in Haiti. We have been told that Canada wants to work with the diaspora to deliver aid to Haiti. You said that civil society has an important role to play and that we should not try to do for people what they can do for themselves. The desire to “use” the diaspora seems to be based on the premise that those who have left Haiti and developed new skills, but who have also maintained contact with their home country, could, if they went back, use their new knowledge and their unique cultural sensitivity to help Haitians.

However, my understanding of the Haitian issue is that the diaspora has been away from the country for so long, and their life experience has been so different from those who remained in Haiti that they are actually not very well liked there. Furthermore, in States where there are so many problems, the diaspora is actually part of the problem.

I would like to hear your ideas on using the diaspora; tell us about the ties that they have with Haitians, what role they would have in international development, and how donor countries could use their services to work more effectively.

5:10 p.m.

Liberal

The Vice-Chair Liberal Bernard Patry

Mr. Barr.

5:10 p.m.

President and Chief Executive Officer, Canadian Council for International Co operation

Gerry Barr

I would just like to say that the diaspora, particularly in Canada, is an asset. It is truly multicultural and enjoys close ties with the rest of the world, particularly with third world countries. Obviously, this makes it much easier for Canadian civil society to build relationships with other countries.

In Canada, the involvement of civil society organizations comprising members of the diaspora in democratic development is a relatively recent phenomenon. In fact, although the communities have always maintained close ties, it is only recently that they have begun operating as non governmental organizations. One can imagine, however, that they will play an increasingly important role in developing relationships between Canada's civil society and that of other countries.

5:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Barr.

Mr. Broadbent.

5:10 p.m.

As an Individual

Ed Broadbent

I think that in general, it is a good idea to work with members of the diaspora, but I have to say that, in the past, we have experienced some difficulties in certain countries. In one instance, members of the diaspora took sides in a conflict that was raging in their country of origin. In this case, it was not such a good idea to turn to members of the diaspora living in Canada. This sort of situation has to be taken very seriously. We only made that mistake once.

Since then, we have exercised more caution to avoid such a problem recurring. As I said earlier, when all is said and done, it is generally a good idea to turn to the diaspora for suggestions regarding their country of origin.

5:15 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Broadbent.

Madam Barbot, you have about thirty seconds if you want to continue.