I would simply say, to add to that, what we find when we're working in these countries is that they want to engage with the bar association and other NGOs that are not connected to government because they feel more comfortable in that they're not being pushed into a position. And the All China Lawyers Association comes back as an example of where we've been able to develop that relationship because we are not government.
One of the funny little experiences we had was in Kenya. When we started, one of the things was that the judges weren't talking to the lawyers at all. How we got them together was that we got some used computers. It's a common law system in Kenya, and they had for a number of years not been writing down the decisions. So how do you argue on a precedent basis when you have no decision? You say to the judge, “Well, Your Honour, do you remember that case a few years ago that you decided that's not written down? You decided this.” So using the computers, we were able to get them to start recording cases and decisions so there would be a record. We were told the judges would never meet and talk to the lawyers in an informal setting. But by bringing them in and training them on these computers, we did bring them together.
But then you talk about measurement. It's a very small example, but you have dialogue going on between the bench and the bar, which in western countries is automatic. But it wasn't there. It's that kind of thing. It's because it was the CBA. It wasn't the Canadian government or the Department of Justice—it was an NGO—and I think that had a particular impact.