Foreign Affairs Committee on March 1st, 2007

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'm going to share my time with Mr. Carrier.

First, Mr. Greenhill, can you give us the text that you read? That would be useful. Since it's already in both languages, that won't pose a problem.

In the Estimates made public on January 27, I searched in vain for the words “democratic development”. Reference is made a number of times to development, but never to democratic development. What does the addition of the words “democratic development” mean, and how can we refer to it?

Second, I'd like to ask one of the questions that has been prepared for us. If the sectoral allocations are the same as in the 29 January document on Canada's Aid Program, 21 % of CIDA's current aid spending will continue towards democratic governance. On that basis, CIDA would spend $640 million on democratic governance in the next fiscal year.

Could you confirm that figure of $640 million for us?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madame Lalonde.

Monsieur Greenhill.

[Robert Greenhill]

We'll be pleased to provide you with a copy of the text.

As we operate by institution and by geographic location, you won't see the words “democratic development”, but you will find the democratic governance target. As that's already in the traditional CIDA structure, it also includes the measures that we must take to assist in resolving conflicts and things of that kind. These funds are thus allocated to governance of one of CIDA's sectors. The same is not true with democratic governance.

We're going to provide the committee with an analysis showing the amounts that will be allocated to the democratic governance of those sectors.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Greenhill.

Mr. Carrier, you have three minutes.

[Robert Carrier, Bloc, Alfred-Pellan, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

This is the first time I've sat on the Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, and I find this quite interesting, particularly since I belong to the Canada-Africa Parliamentary Association. So there's a certain link.

Your brochure shows your various action components. I see it's a very broad and very good mandate, except that you surely can't intervene in all countries at the same time and in the same way. How do you determine your action targets? Are they defined in part by the Department of Foreign Affairs, or are you entirely free to determine them and do you then submit them to the minister? Do you inform the minister responsible of the results of your efforts respecting the various action targets determined, so that democratic actions can subsequently be taken?

[Robert Greenhill]

Thank you. Those are essential questions, particularly regarding democratic governance.

At CIDA, we focus our resources more on certain countries. To decide where and how we are going to act with regard to democratic governance, we take two factors into account. First, we must clarify Canada's desire to get involved, whether it be in elections in the Ukraine, Afghanistan or Haiti. This is about development, but also about a positive commitment for Canada.

Second, we talk with the partner countries, either with their governments, or with members of civil society. We increasingly try to take initiatives that are consistent with the needs expressed by these developing countries. For example, we're currently working with people from Mali to set up the first auditor general's office in Francophone Africa. This is a specific request from the Mali government, which sees this as a way to increase its transparency and to enhance its fight against corruption.

The decision to get involved in Haiti in recent years clearly came from the Government of Canada. As regards where and how we were going to work, that was discussed with Haitian authorities. We provided support for the electoral commission. The Parliamentary Centre is now helping to train parliamentarians. We also trained media and human rights groups following discussions with members of civil society.

We provide feedback on specific projects so as to determine what worked and what did not. We also think we are able to summarize, in the context of discussions, the lessons learned with the Office for Democratic Governance. The objective is to ensure we always use the best programs in the context of these efforts.

It is clear that democratic governance is a more complex, more difficult and more delicate matter in education and other difficult sectors than in other areas. That is why we considered establishing an office devoted to those matters. That's essential for us to become stronger in those areas.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Greenhill.

We'll go to the government side.

On the funding, yesterday the main estimates part II were released, They showed that the budget for CIDA in 2007-08 will be $3,049,000,000. You said the funding for democratic development is roughly $375 million, but in this document it shows democratic governance at 21% of your budget, which is $650 million. That is a substantive increase. Does that amount seem right to you?

How much does CIDA's spending on democratic governance account for the total package of what the Canadian government...? Is there some group out there that gathers these figures and says how much of the democratic development purse CIDA has, how much Foreign Affairs has, and how much other departments have?

[Robert Greenhill]

The $375 million refers to 2005-06, so compared to 2007-08--

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

So there is a 61% increase?

[Robert Greenhill]

The sectoral breakdown includes elements to do with conflict resolution, and so on, that don't fit into the democratic governance area but are traditionally put under the rubric of governance more broadly defined.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

In this document it shows democratic governance as 21% of your budget.

[Robert Greenhill]

I will ensure we get the precise numbers and provide an analysis of some of the activities done by other departments that fall under this rubric.

If we take the Global Peace and Security Fund and its increasing role in security sector reform, justice, and rule of law in some fragile states, they are also going to have an important contribution to make. That is why the Democracy Council is co-chaired by both Foreign Affairs and ourselves.

If the question is whether we can get a clear understanding on a going-forward basis of how much the Government of Canada is committing to this issue, we'll work with Foreign Affairs to put together in short order a layout of those numbers for this committee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

I would appreciate that, especially the short order deal. You are probably our last witnesses on this, and for this report some of this information is very pertinent.

Mr. Goldring, please.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Mr. Greenhill, looking at your reports here, my questioning is along the same line. You certainly have identified and laid out the basic structuring of this democratic governance, and there seems to be some question as to exactly how much is being allocated to that function and to that organization. Would it be possible--it would be helpful to us--to have more of a flow chart of the actual divisions that this organization is actively working in or planning to be working in? In other words, has it gone to the level of being structured?

You had mentioned earlier that you've already gone out to tender on certain aspects of this. If you have gone out to tender on it, obviously you would have a more in-depth structure that has been already designed to be able to do that. If you're going out to tender, are you specifying what you wish in this tender or are you looking for proposals from others?

The reason I'm questioning that is we have been spending considerable time on this committee on this report, and I'm wondering how this report itself, with its recommendations that are expected to accompany the report, will fit into your overall strategy and planning, and whether that will have an impact that may be varying it in the future. It would be helpful to us now to have some idea structure-wise on how you envision that democratic governance to go forward, with a dollar tag estimate tagged to it too.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Goldring.

Mr. Greenhill.

[Robert Greenhill]

We'll provide that--in terms of how the structure is done and the ideas we have. The Office for Democratic Governance is about 30 to 40 people to help coordinate within CIDA many of the activities that are taking place across different geographic branches and other organs of government. We can lay that out.

On the specific issue in terms of going to tender, that is for what's called a deployment mechanism, which will be a Canadian partner chosen through competitive bid that will be coordinating with sources of expertise across Canada. Then if somebody says they need to get somebody who knows about reforming of the Auditor General's Office, or they need someone who can help them with judicial reform or other issues, we will have a mechanism in place to be able to identify and put the right people in the field very quickly. That's how this specific deployment mechanism would work.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Again in your literature you've already identified your partner organizations, and they're all well identified. Have you gone through a search, a seeking process, to seek these before you identified them here?

[Robert Greenhill]

Yes. This was done based on the experience of the last five or so years in terms of what had been the Canadian international partners that had worked with CIDA on this. What we did in this specific request for proposals is it was publicly put out on the system and people were invited to submit bids. Clearly, one of the criteria was expertise and knowledge in the field.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Then I would question on that level my colleague's comments about the diaspora. Certainly on the level of the Ukraine and Eastern Europe, there is a lot of intelligence here in this country that can be utilized, as well as the Caribbean diaspora, to be engaged in a certain fashion. Yet I don't see them being identified here, nor other diasporas of other regions in the world, as having any important significance, enough to be able to be identified.

[Robert Greenhill]

In fact, the diaspora communities play an important role. The Ukrainian elections are one. In terms of the whole issue around Haiti and the interim government, we actually had a couple of meetings with the diaspora communities as well. In Afghanistan the diaspora communities are playing an important role, but often actually within these organizations.... CARE Canada had an Afghan Canadian playing a critical role there. Rights & Democracy actually has diaspora members involved in human rights programming, so there are actually diasporas here.

This list is simply historical record. I wouldn't be at all surprised...if we have this list in a year or two years, you may actually find diaspora organizations actively involved through this programming. But you can be assured that diaspora communities and individuals are already very actively involved across this area.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Perhaps for our own information on your flow chart you could indicate the access for the diaspora communities, so that the various communities that have interest in helping can be more readily directed.

Do I have a little time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Yes, you do.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

On your report here, too, you identified many countries you're working in, but it has Haiti only under “Freedom and Democracy”. Is Haiti under another file because of its circumstances? I would certainly think there's accountability of public institutions, rule of law, and human rights concerns there too. That would be under this new group, too, would it?

[Robert Greenhill]

Yes, you're absolutely right, because this is an illustrative list; this isn't a complete list. In fact, in terms of programs we've been involved in, we've been very involved in the elections and freedom issues.

We've been very involved in human rights, particularly the human rights of Haitians on the border with the Dominican Republic, and we do specific programming there. We've been very involved in the rule of law issue, reforming of the Haitian national police, and judicial reform. So in fact, you're absolutely right, we can show examples of where we're doing this in Haiti right now.

As I mentioned, this is a sample; this isn't a comprehensive list of our projects.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

We're giving substantial support in those areas.