Foreign Affairs Committee on May 30th, 2006

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Therefore, there were 802 actual buildings where there were several... And generally speaking, things unfolded smoothly in those 802 centres?

[Jacques Bernard]

Absolutely. I must tell you that there were some places where problems occurred, and that is precisely why we held new elections in 14 for some members' ridings as well as new elections for senators from the North East.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

Would you say that Haiti now has a permanent electoral system? Otherwise, what changes would have to be made in order to have one?

[Jacques Bernard]

I think we have to specify what we're talking about because the subject is open to debate and discussion. I believe that we have to distinguish between the electoral machine and the administrative council overseeing everything.

In Haiti, we need an electoral machine that is capable of technically and scientifically run elections. To my mind, it is not about having a provisional electoral council—like the one we currently have—or a permanent one, that will guarantee an election. What will guarantee an election, is the mission's effectiveness, and that is what we have to focus on, regardless of the administrative council.

[Pablo Rodriguez, Liberal, Honoré-Mercier, QC]

More precisely, with the identity card and the voters' list, you have everything you need to run a more structured, more permanent electoral system.

That is what my question is based on. In this case in particular, did you had to make practically super-human efforts to get there. If there were to be an election tomorrow morning, would it be too difficult to repeat those efforts? Or are there some more permanent elements which, next time, would not make the difficulty the same, but make things much easier?

[Jacques Bernard]

Absolutely. In fact, even for municipal elections, which are going to be held in two or three months, we will be setting up the same machine. The same national identity card is going to be used, the same system will be used, the same voters' partial list will be used as well.

What we need now is to consolidate our achievements. We got the machine up and running twice and we need to build on our success to make sure that for the next election that will take place in two years—for one-third of the Senate—we will at least have a machine that is capable of organizing an election.

We have organized these elections with the technical assistance of MINUSTAH and the OAS. As we speak, the technology transfer has not taken place. That means that Haitians are still unable to take over from the OAS, particularly when it comes to the partial voters' list, and the registry that we want to keep in Haiti.

The transfer of technology from MINUSTAH and the OAS to a Haitian team will take some time.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madame Lalonde.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Thank you very much. I'd also like to start by congratulating you. Before discussing the future, I would like to ask you a few questions.

From an objective standpoint, we realize that we were on the brink of a precipice when the results had not yet been confirmed. René Préval's supporters may have gotten the impression that some people were plotting against them as the rest of the results were slow in coming. I was following the situation on a daily basis, far less than you were, but still to some extent.

And then, when the preferred candidate was clearly ahead and would have won in the run-off, but did not have a majority, negotiations took place to change blank ballots into something else. Yet, I have Haitian friends who stated that unmarked ballots were not an anomaly but rather the expression of the will to vote, but for no particular candidate.

Mr. Bernard, I'm not referring to the problems you had. I can refer to them insofar as the information did not remain private. At some point during the process, you had to leave because your life was in danger.

In your presentation, I do not really see any recommendations which would help to avoid the situation from recurring. I'd like to hear what you have to say on that. I believe it is important to disclose results, because we could end up with the same problem. So there is the issue of the timing of the disclosure, the blank ballots with respect to a majority, and another point that I do not want to forget. At some point, ballots were found in a dump. What was that about? Were they really ballots? It would seem to confirm that there was fraud.

I'd like to close by saying that I think it is very important for you to clarify these points.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Madam Lalonde.

Mr. Bernard or Mr. Kingsley.

[Jacques Bernard]

With respect to the blank ballots, the election writ is somewhat unclear. On the one hand there is a subjective interpretation of the definition of a blank ballot and on the other hand what the writ says to that effect, which is not very clear. If you look at the section of the writ of election which deals with unmarked ballots, you will see that it states that all ballots marked with an X or any other sign unequivocally indicating the voter's intention to vote in the space (circle, photo, emblem) reserved for the candidate are valid and accounted for. Further on we see that ballots on which there is no choice expressed are also valid and accounted for. That means that the wording used for valid ballots is also used for unmarked ballots. That led to a great deal of confusion.

When I personally started processing ballots, I counted blank ballots simply to establish a percentage. That decision was not taken lightly. I was not personally involved in that decision because I am Director General of the CEP. It is a decision which was handed down by the tribunal composed of the board and jurists. Opinions deferred on this point. Some jurists argued for one option whereas others preferred the other option. There was a great deal of confusion. I think the solution would be to have a clear electoral writ which would eliminate any confusion as to the processing of blank ballots.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

And what about disclosure?

[Jacques Bernard]

Disclosure?

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

The fact that 48% of electors had voted for Mr. Préval...

[Jacques Bernard]

We tried to modernize elections in Haiti. We created a broadcasting centre. Each day, the centre would broadcast election results, aside from what we published on the Internet.

It just so happened that on that day I was the only one announcing results. The tally for Mr. Préval had fallen to 49.7%. And the rest is history. I don't think that we should do away with the broadcasting centre because we had a negative reaction to the decision to create such a centre. I think that in any future elections in Haiti, the broadcasting centre should continue to operate because it allows journalists to be present, members of the CEP to share the results, and it also gives journalists a better understanding of the election process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Madame Lalonde, we're out of time.

Mr. Goldring.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll try to keep it within the five minutes, so the longer you take to ask the question, the less time our guests have.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Mr. Kingsley, Mr. Bernard, I too want to add my congratulations for a wonderful job that has been done on the electoral process.

My question relates more to what I think Mr. Rodriguez has touched on, and I'm sorry if it didn't come through that clearly. There is a very substantial amount of hardware and capital put into the machinery—the electronics, the computers—in that large voting centre that is there. I was given the impression that perhaps it wasn't a permanent location. I think it would behoove the country to have it continually established there as a means to conduct other elections too, because I imagine the computers would be utilizing the same process.

Is that a permanent installation, and does it come with all of what I would suppose would be manuals and operating guidelines, as a well-written and well-documented process to be utilized now and then turned over to Haitian authorities at some time in the future?

[Jacques Bernard]

I would like it to remain a permanent facility. The building where the tabulation centre is located belongs to the government. In fact, the whole industrial park where we are belongs to the government. To that extent, I think it's easier to keep it as a permanent facility.

All the equipment is there. I must say that I have asked Mr. Kingsley whether he could find an expert from Canada to come down to help do exactly what you talk about. He sent me somebody by the name of Alain Gauthier, who worked on that project from the beginning. He came in for the second round, and he has already completed his work, and it's precisely what you're talking about. I have a thick book that describes every step of the process. I received it about two days ago, so I have to review it and make comment. But it was done thanks to Mr. Kingsley, and it was done by a Canadian.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I'm sensing, though, that you're saying it's not necessarily established as a permanent electoral facility.

[Jacques Bernard]

What I'm saying is that, frankly, when I joined the CEP I was so concentrated on having elections that it is only now that I'm starting to think about the future and how we're going to be able to keep all these facilities, all this knowledge, and the transfer of knowledge from the OAS to Haiti. So that is the next step. And that's why I talked about building that electoral machine. That is part of that electoral machine, to keep these facilities there.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Yes, because the room we were in was just amazing. There were hundreds of computers in there. There's a tremendous amount of set-up and cost to put it in if it's just on a rental basis. It would be a tremendous loss if it couldn't be replicated and kept.

[Jacques Bernard]

Yes, I do hope we will be able to keep it. That's going to be my recommendation to the government upon my return to Haiti on June 4. That's one of the things I'm supposed to do. I have personally already taken steps to make it permanent, but in the final analysis, it's not my decision; it's the decision of the government.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I have just one final question.

With the Ukraine elections they included the municipal and regional areas of election. They actually had four ballots for each person to fill out and mark, to indicate. Is it the intention in the future to maybe combine these, rather than have so many different stages of elections? Now you're looking at the municipal election too. Can that not be combined in the same way as it was in Ukraine and some other places?

[Jacques Bernard]

What we did for this election was combine them by function. So for instance, for president, all the presidents were on one ballot--but different political parties. You have to realize that we had about 45 political parties participating, so the ballots were pretty good. But in the second round, where we reduced the number of candidates for deputy to only two, the ballots were about the size of a sheet of paper.

But we do need to have different ballots per circonscription, because physically you can't have a different circonscription in the same ballot. It would be very difficult.