Evidence of meeting #6 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cida.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Yasmine Shamsie  Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University
Andrew Thompson  Research Associate, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Suzanne Laporte  Vice-president, Americas Branch, Canadian International Development Agency
David Beer  Director General, International Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yves Pétillon  Program Director, Haiti, Cuba and Dominican Republic Americas Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

3:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We'll call this meeting to order. It's the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, meeting number 6, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), a study on Canada's role in complex international interventions that involve multiple foreign policy instruments, focusing on Canada's efforts in Haiti.

We are fortunate today to have with us two guests. One is Dr. Yasmine Shamsie, assistant professor, Department of Political Science, from Wilfrid Laurier University.

We welcome you.

We also welcome Dr. Andrew Thompson, research associate, from the Centre for International Governance Innovation.

I should also say that besides their being involved in those different groups, at the university and at the Centre for International Governance Innovation, they have also together written a book Haiti: Hope for a Fragile State, which we have not read, but we look forward to it.

We welcome you this afternoon, on a warm Ottawa day. As is the custom here, we will give you an opportunity for an opening statement.

Members, if I could just have your attention, I would intend today to keep fairly strictly to the clock, to five minutes, so everyone gets an opportunity to question our guests.

Welcome. The time is yours.

3:35 p.m.

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, and members of Parliament, people in the audience.

First, I'd like to thank you for inviting me. I look forward to hearing your questions.

If there are questions in French, I will also answer them.

My presentation today is going to focus on the economic development strategy that Canada and other donors are advancing in Haiti. I plan to outline our approach and make some suggestions on how, in my view, it might be improved.

Just to be clear from the outset, I'm using today a poverty reduction lens to judge our economic development plan in Haiti. In other words, I'm interested in exploring how the economic development approach we are using will affect the country's poorest citizens. The emphasis on poverty reduction is in part normative, but it is also due to the importance that both peace-building experts and development experts have assigned to this goal.

For example, the International Crisis Group notes that much of the violence that plagues Haiti is due to the “chronic failure to tackle the poverty, social deprivation, and exclusion that endanger most of the population”. Basically, donors have accepted that poverty and inequality are among those factors leading to violence, insecurity, and political instability in Haiti. In fact, in a recent strategy paper on Haiti, CIDA argues that Canada's primary challenge is to find and implement strategies that will foster poverty reduction.

Over half of all Haitians, about 56%, live on less than one dollar U.S. per day, making the country's poverty deeper and more pervasive than in the rest of Latin America. Haiti's peasant farmers make up the most destitute segment of the population, with rural residents accounting for 75% of the country's poor. Haiti also suffers the starkest division between rich and poor of any Caribbean country.

Canada and the international community have a threefold strategy for economic renewal in Haiti. The first goal is to build stronger links with members of the Haitian diaspora. The second is to strengthen the private sector, which is viewed as the primary engine of economic growth. The third is to re-establish Haiti's assembly manufacturing export sector.

Today I will argue that while these focuses may help to reactivate the economy, they are unlikely to significantly improve the lot of Haiti's poor. This is because there is very little in this plan for the country's rural majority. But I will expand on that later. Due to time constraints today, I will say only a few words about two of these strategies--boosting the private sector and re-establishing the export assembly sector.

With regard to the first strategy, although the country's private sector is fragile and weak, it is a major development objective of the Canadian government. For instance, Ottawa is supporting an initiative designed to train Haitian business leaders inside Haiti. Canada also recently acted as host for the first ever meeting between the Inter-American Development Bank, President Enrique Iglesias, and members of the Haitian private sector. This was to discuss the private sector's role in rebuilding Haiti.

While the private sector can contribute to economic renewal, this focus is not without challenges. For instance, international development agencies have tended to view the Haitian private sector with suspicion. Haitian business elites have long been suspected of being more interested in turning a quick profit than in long-term economic development. Moreover, past links between private sector players in Haiti, former Haitian dictators, the army, and paramilitary groups are a continued source of concern for many development agencies, and rightly so.

Progressive elements in the private sector are beginning to alter this perception, but this is a very slow process. The fact that Canada hosted this IDB-private sector meeting will undoubtedly help create the kind of valuable links between these two partners, but again, the democratic and development credentials of this sector remain tainted.

More importantly, though, if we turn back to the objective of poverty reduction, it's important to note that there is little data to support the assumption that the poorest Haitians, most of whom make their living from the rural areas and the informal sector, will automatically benefit from a more robust private sector.

Even the World Bank, a staunch supporter of private sector development, notes that the evidence on small and medium-sized businesses, growth and poverty, does not support the contention that small and medium-sized businesses are particularly effective job creators. The bank's analysis also reveals that the size of the small and medium-sized business sector is not significantly associated with the income of the poorest quintile of society, or the percentage of the population living below the poverty line, or the poverty gap.

So while prosperous and thriving economies usually have a strong small and medium-sized business sector, cross-country comparisons do not indicate that the small and medium-sized business sector exerts a particularly beneficial impact on the incomes of the poor.

Regarding export assembly operations, this part of the economic development plan is very much in line with conventional economic thinking. A country like Haiti's comparative advantage lies in its cheap labour and proximity to U.S. shores. Hence, encouraging export assembly operations seems reasonable. Interestingly, though, this was actually tried in Haiti during the 1970s and 1980s. What I want to point out today is that this earlier attempt to promote light industry through assembly production failed to spark development. In fact, it actually increased inequality and poverty levels.

Jean-Claude Duvalier championed export development manufacturing between 1971 and 1986, offering various incentives: a tax holiday of 10 years, complete profit repatriation, and a guaranteed non-unionized workforce. This did lead to a massive expansion of assembly operations. Exports from light industry grew at an average annual rate of 40% during the 1970s.

By the early 1980s Haiti was second only to Mexico among US-centred subcontracting territories in the western hemisphere. It had about 240 multinational corporations, employing between 40,000 and 60,000 workers, depending on whose numbers you're going to choose.

In 1985, one year before Duvalier was forced into exile, Haiti was ranked ninth in the world in the assembly of goods for U.S. consumption. In fact, it's often said that every baseball in the United States at that time was made in Haiti. The sector generated more than a half of the country's industrial exports and earned one-quarter of its foreign exchange.

Despite this tremendous expansion, the effects on Haiti's overall economy were disappointing, especially in terms of the number of Haitians living at or below the poverty line. The country's debt increased; foreign exchange reserves were exhausted by 1981. Commenting on Haiti's balance of payments, World Bank officials conceded that the assembly industry had, in the long term, made “almost no fiscal contribution” to the economy. Repercussions for Haiti's poorest citizens were significant as well.

First, faced with a shortfall in revenues from imports, because all manner of imports, goods, luxury goods were now entering the country free of taxes on the pretext that they were essential to assembly firms, the Haitian government turned to consumption taxes, which studies have shown adversely affected rural peasants and members of the urban lower classes, in particular.

Another effect of this plan was that food costs increased as production diminished. The production diminished because of the mass exodus from rural areas to Port-au-Prince, which was the primary site of the manufacturing sector. Between 1975 and 1985 the average price of all foodstuffs more than doubled, again hurting the poorest households the most.

Although the model provided some economic growth, it also increased poverty and economic polarization by favouring the economic development of Port-au- Prince, the urban sector, over the rest of the country, the rural sector. In short, poverty was not reduced, mostly because the slight industry strategy explicitly averted the rural world, although I have to admit that appalling levels of corruption under Duvalierism were also an important contributing factor here.

Ignoring the needs of the agrarian sector has been customary in Haiti, and it also reflects a long-term pattern among donors. The economic development plans of the 1990s allocated only 7% of assistance to agriculture, the source of income for 80% of all Haitians living below the poverty line. Current donors, including Canada, argue that agriculture in Haiti is neither sustainable nor ecologically sound. To be sure, rural development is a daunting challenge.

Haiti's landholdings are small, mainly on steep slopes, making mechanical farming virtually impossible, and close to one-third of all plots are in agriculturally marginal areas. Still, Haiti experts argue that it is these abysmal conditions that make rural development absolutely essential, if for no other reason than to prevent the rural poor from slipping further into poverty. Restoring agricultural production and improving food security for rural households must be established as a strategic priority for international donors who make poverty reduction their primary objective.

Canada showed real leadership when it released its 2003 policy paper entitled Promoting Sustainable Rural Development Through Agriculture, especially since it did so on the heels of substantial cuts to aid to agriculture and rural development by bilateral and multilateral agencies throughout the 1990s. Regrettably, though, Ottawa decided in 2005 to drop agriculture as a focus of its foreign aid program. This has enormous repercussions for countries like Haiti, where promoting sustainable rural development through agriculture is crucial to poverty alleviation. Aid to peasant agriculture would encourage small-scale producers to remain on the land and improve their livelihoods through production of food for consumption and for sale to local markets.

To be sure, Canada's priorities, its new priorities--health, education, good governance, environment, and the private sector--are important; however, it is difficult to imagine putting an end to extreme poverty in Haiti without a strong and sustained plan that targets the rural world.

In conclusion, when it comes to addressing economic development, that is, reducing poverty and inequality, and building a viable economy, Canada has decided to follow the lead of other major donors in applying a predominantly urban-based development strategy. This approach proved unsuccessful in the 1970s and 1980s when the Haitian government chose to overlook its rural sector in favour of promoting export processing zones, and it also proved unsuccessful most recently in the mid-1990s when donors overlooked this sector as well.

The argument here today is not that Canada or foreign donors should orient the bulk of their aid and loans to the agricultural sector. Given the level of environmental degradation in Haiti, overpopulation, and increased division of land holdings, agriculture will never become Haiti's primary engine of economic growth. However, if poverty reduction is indeed a primary objective for Canada, restoring agricultural production and improving food security for rural households must be a strategic priority.

3:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Madam Shamsie.

Mr. Thompson.

3:45 p.m.

Dr. Andrew Thompson Research Associate, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Thank you, Mr. Chair and honourable members of the committee.

My involvement with Haiti dates back to 1998, when I spent the summer in Limbe at a non-profit hospital. Limbe is in the northern part of the country. Since then, I have written on the human rights situation in Haiti and have worked, and continue to work, with Amnesty International's Canadian section and its international secretariat on Haiti.

What I thought I would do today is give a brief overview of the human rights situation in Haiti and then make a case for why Canada's engagement in Haiti and with Haiti should centre on human rights.

Very briefly, since the insurgency of February 5, 2004, the human rights situation in Haiti has been in a state of crisis. Despite the presence of the UN stabilization mission in Haiti, the human rights situation in Haiti has remained perilous and in desperate need of strengthening. Even with the successful election last February the country remains politically polarized, while lawlessness and violence are common. A deeply ingrained culture of impunity, widespread police abuses, including arbitrary arrests, torture, ill treatment, prolonged detentions, and extrajudicial executions, along with a judiciary that appears to lack independence, high levels of criminal activity, deliberate and arbitrary killings of civilians, rape, death threats, and intimidation, and an overall climate of insecurity are some of the major problems that currently plague Haiti and are in need of remedy.

Those responsible for the abuses include a wide range of actors. These include armed gangs, with or without political ties to former President Jean-Bertrand Aristide, rogue police officers, former rebels, demobilized members of the former Haitian armed forces, and members of organized criminal gangs.

Haiti is in desperate need of a police force that is able to police the tiny island nation in a fair, equitable, and just manner that is consistent with international norms. Unfortunately, this is not a new problem for Haiti. The country has a long history of corrupt and abusive police forces, despite considerable international aid in this area. Indeed, the international community's attempts at police reform in the 1990s produced disappointing results. By the end of the decade, slightly less than one in five of all police officers had been dismissed because of charges of corruption, drug offences, and human rights abuses. Moreover, elements of the force are highly politicized, and some of its members are responsible for some very terrible human rights abuses, often involving lethal force. As I mentioned before, arbitrary arrests are frequent, while extrajudicial executions remain common and are rarely investigated.

Part of the problem involves human resources. Currently there are several thousand officers who are responsible for policing a population of about eight million, which simply is not sufficient. Often, they are required to handle situations involving political violence and heavily armed criminal gangs.

Haiti's justice system is also badly in need of reform. Described by many as being highly dysfunctional, the country has been plagued by a culture of impunity. Furthermore, the independence of the judiciary remains very much in doubt. Prison conditions are deplorable; they are overcrowded and incredibly unsanitary. Freedom of expression continues to be under constant threat, and in this climate the rule of law has been largely absent in much of the country. Women and street children are particularly vulnerable. The former are often targets of terror campaigns that involve rape, while the latter are susceptible to attacks by the police.

MINUSTAH, the UN force, has been operating in Haiti since June 2004. Its presence in Haiti has been a source of controversy, particularly while the transitional government was in power. Part of the problem with MINUSTAH is that it has a relatively weak mandate. Security Council resolution 1542 requires that MINUSTAH work alongside the Haitian national police on all issues involving policing. As such, MINUSTAH does not have either the authority or the resources to engage in independent policing activities, although it does have power to vet and certify new and existing Haitian national police personnel for service.

Because of this a number of questions have been raised about its neutrality, as it is seen by some sectors of the Haitian population to be in league with the Haitian National Police. Compounding this legitimacy deficit is that UN forces have been unable to provide security for all sectors of society, even though the number of UN troops was recently increased to 8,000 soldiers.

The abuses taking place in Haiti have been exacerbated by the presence and accessibility of thousands of small arms in the country. Indeed, a number of non-governmental organizations have argued that the most pressing issue facing Haiti at the moment is the proliferation of approximately 170,000 small arms--and this is a very conservative estimate of the number of guns that are in the country. These weapons have helped fuel violence between insurgents, criminal gangs, and pro-Aristide supporters.

Efforts have been taken to demobilize members of the former military through the National Commission on Disarmament that was established in February 2005. However, results to date have not been terribly encouraging. At present, few weapons have been collected. More definitely needs to be done in this area.

To conclude, I have five recommendations for the Government of Canada, all of which are intended to better the human rights situation in Haiti.

The first is to promote international human rights standards within Haiti. Two weeks ago, I saw the announcement in which the Government of Canada pledged $48 million to promote good governance and democracy in Haiti. While I'm not familiar with the specific details of the program, I wish to commend the government for making that commitment to human rights and to peace. I urge the government to continue with these priorities and to publicly condemn human rights violations when they do occur.

The second recommendation is to continue to invest in police, judicial, and penal reform. If Haiti's police are to become a functional, depoliticized institution, then all members need to be trained according to international standards. The benchmarks for success should be standards found in key international human rights documents. The same holds true for the judicial and penal systems, both of which need to be brought up to international standards of due process.

The third is to assist with a nationwide disarmament, demobilization, and reintegration program. This means working towards disarming all non-state actors, but also insisting that the Haitian National Police use their weapons in a lawful and proportionate manner.

The fourth recommendation is to help ensure that Haiti does not fall off the international agenda.

The constant uncertainty and scaling back of resources that plagued numerous international missions has hurt the prospects of genuine reform. MINUSTAH's current mandate is set to expire in the middle of August. Canada can work at the UN to ensure that, come August, MINUSTAH's mandate is renewed, and insist that the human rights mechanisms within MINUSTAH have the necessary resources that they need in order to carry out their functions.

This also means insisting that MINUSTAH take into account the provisions of both the UN Declaration on the Elimination of Violence Against Women, and Security Council Resolution 1325, which lists steps that the international community must take in order to protect women and children caught in conflict environments and fragile and failing states, and they must make this a priority of the mission.

The fifth recommendation is to be patient. With Haiti, there can be no quick fixes. Those who have been given the task of assisting Haiti should be prepared for setbacks. The absence of short-term results may make it tempting to forgo a long-term commitment. I would argue that this would be a very short-sighted view of the situation.

Nothing I've said today should come as a surprise. In one form or another, these recommendations can be found in various UN Security Council resolutions. My point is that the solutions are there. It's now just a matter of acting on them and seeing them through. This is essential if Haiti is to one day become a functioning society.

Thank you very much.

3:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you to our guests today, and to Mr. Thompson this last time for bringing forward his report and his recommendations.

We'll now go into the first round, in which I will try to keep everyone to five minutes.

Mr. Patry.

3:55 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ms. Shamsie and Mr. Thompson.

My question is for Ms. Shamsie. Since I have only five minutes, there is no point in asking too many questions, because I will not get answers to them

Dr. Shamsie, you have looked at Canada's approach in Haiti concerning poverty reduction, knowing very well that even though poverty is widespread in urban areas, including Port-au-Prince, the situation seems to be beyond hope in rural areas. You point out quite rightly that in the past, under the dictatorial regime of Jean-Claude Duvalier, the assembly plants and exports created jobs in the cities, but not in rural areas. You seem to be in favour of an agricultural approach, which is not being pursued at all right now and which Canada is not supporting either.

I have two questions. First, what can be done to support this agricultural approach, knowing very well that, among other problems, farm plots in rural Haiti are very small and it is difficult to make them any bigger?

Second, do you not think that what you describe as a failure in terms of generating substantial income to reduce poverty in Haiti, that is, the assembly plants that were in operation 15 or 20 years ago, was really the result of the dictatorship, which controlled the 240 companies you mentioned?

Thank you.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Patry.

It's up to our guests. Ms. Shamsie or Mr. Thompson?

4 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

Do we take one question at a time?

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Yes, that's right.

4 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

Okay.

The first issue relates, in a way, to how we would envision a development policy that's centred around rural areas in Haiti, in terms of the size of plots of land and so on.

Since I have a moment, I want to say that Canada and the IDB and other donors have been targeting the rural sector in a way that is supporting infrastructure, for example, working on environmental degradation and promoting export crops and aquaculture farms. These are all worthwhile goals.

What I'm trying to get at is more of a peasant path to development that would prioritize food security. Some policies in that direction would be aimed at reducing the gap, for example, between capitalist farmers and peasant farm sectors; adapting existing modern technologies to the needs of the peasant sector given the conditions there; creating more peasant-friendly, appropriate sustainable technologies; and also, as part of this, promoting broader social and political conditions to make rural peasant production sustainable and productive.

What I mean is that it was clear to donors in the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s that the liberalization of Haiti's markets and the lowering of protective tariffs on rice, for instance—the country's most basic staple—would devastate Haitian rice producers. This was well known. USAID came out with two reports, one in 1987 and another one in 1995, that said that if they lowered their tariffs, it would basically bring a loss of about $15 million a year to rice-growing peasants, further reducing their already poor standard of living. That was in a USAID report. In other words, we are advancing macro-economic policies that we know will impoverish these sectors. So maybe a “do no harm” policy would be a good way to start, regarding not decimating it further and pushing people out of rural areas into the slums of Port-au-Prince, where of course there is no employment.

The second point is around the regime of Duvalier. This was the failure of the export assembly, in part due to the fact that this was a dictatorship. That's why I mentioned corruption. I think one part of the problem was corruption. There is no question that the Duvaliers were experts at this. They managed to funnel unbelievable amounts of money out of the country and used the export promotion strategy to do this.

The other thing to remember is that social scientists who have looked at the export manufacturing sector say that it would only employ—even at its strongest, when it was doing the best, 60,000 workers, if you take that number—about 4% or 5% of the population. There are some political science and Haiti experts who have said that it would barely act as the kind of employment generator that people think it would.

So I think there are flaws in the strategy itself, which are aside from the actual political structure that would underpin it--whether it's the Duvalier dictatorship or something else.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right, thank you.

I'll just remind the committee that five minutes is for the questions and the answers. Let's try to be concise so that we can get in as many questions as possible.

Madame Lalonde.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

That's for everybody.

4 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

For everybody.

4 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you.

Good afternoon. My colleague will be addressing her questions to you, so do not worry, Mr. Thompson.

Ms. Shamsie, I found your text very interesting. There were many similarities with both the 2003 CIDA study, which was an interesting report that admitted that mistakes had been made, and the latest study by the International Court of Justice, the ICJ, on the first 100 days of the Préval government.

I would like to know what you think about the political cohesion talked about by the ICJ. Among other things, it proposes using the Poverty Reduction Strategy Paper, sponsored by the World Bank, to establish a national dialogue, which is something that never happened under the transitional government, because using the PRSP would promote the active participation of marginalized populations, community groups, women, farmers, etc.

Expectations are too high. I understand what is being called for. We also need to help people be patient. Donors need to be patient, but the local people also need to feel that things are progressing and that they are being heard.

What do you think of that element, given the work that you have done?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

: I completely agree with you.

Previous plans regarding economic development in Haiti really did not have any kind of support from the general population. There were not consultations of the various sectors of society—women's groups, agricultural groups, and so on. This is why, as Haiti crafts its poverty reduction strategy paper, which it will have to do in the coming months, there is a suggestion that there be these kinds of meetings.

But I think it's also important in terms of political reconciliation to bring these different sectors together—the private sector, peasant communities, the women's sector. Haitians have gone through a very decisive political moment, and they need the space not only to have input into the development program that is going to be undertaken but also to mend fences between these various groups. It's absolutely essential, and I think donors need to be patient and to truly allow it to happen and make it work and allow it to have an impact on whatever is decided.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you very much.

You are right to talk about agriculture. Where many underdeveloped countries are concerned, not enough emphasis is placed on agriculture, which can provide work and ensure food self-sufficiency for people.

I did not hear you say anything about the deforestation problem. Only 1 per cent of the land is covered by forest. Could there not be reforestation programs where infrastructure is completely non-existent, where it has been destroyed? Of course, that would take money, but can there be development when there are no roads, electricity, etc.?

4:05 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

You are right. The donors are in agreement about that. Canada and the major multilateral banks are also working on environmental projects, reforestation, etc.

It is an eje, as they say in Spanish, a main axis of development, and I think all development actors, including Canada, are involved in it.

I didn't mention it. All I did mention is that the rural sector tends to be targeted through it. In other words, Canada will say, we are working on agricultural and rural sectors: we are helping to plant trees. But although that's essential, I think we also need to be working with small producers and so on for provision of seeds and other kinds of things as well.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Excellent. Has my time expired? No.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have 10 seconds.

4:05 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Thank you. I will not get any answers in that short a time.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We'll go to Mr. Goldring.

4:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Thank you for appearing here today, Dr. Shamsie and Dr. Thompson.

I'd like to make a comment first about your comments, Dr. Thompson, because both of these issues are certainly interrelated. You made comments on the need to reform the judiciary and the police force; in other words, to bring security to the country at a point in time where we have one of what I would call the poster symbols of Haitian civil unrest, the Cité Soleil, an area that's not under control by the government at all. When you add that to the other complexities, the security problem and the civil rights problem, I think it had been mentioned before that past regimes have in fact taken away money and funds from the manufacturing sector, which didn't go to the government for good governance and for continuing society. There was quite a bit of interreaction that was detrimental to even the future of the manufacturing sector.

We're talking about the agricultural sector too. I agree with Ms. Lalonde that an important consideration is the environmental aspect. It's very difficult to begin agricultural improvement and reform without addressing the problems of serious erosion.

My question will be in and around that. I certainly recognize that we need to increase food production in the country for all of society.

In the manufacturing sector, you identify 60,000 workers who are really producing $2 to $4 per day in today's money, and you've identified a poverty level of less than $1 a day. I would think it would be a dramatic increase and it would bode well to try to rework it to encourage more in the manufacturing sector rather than to abandon it. Is it your feeling that you would really want to abandon that type of economic input? At one point in time, 25% of the country's economy could be returned. Why would we not want to concentrate on bringing that back and renew it--and reform the judiciary and the other parts of society that obviously made more profit on that than did the citizens of the country?

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

First of all, 60,000 is a generous number; it's between 40,000 and 60,000. Out of 8.5 million people, that's not a huge chunk.

4:10 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

Use a multiple of 10.

4:10 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

The assumption that underlines your question is that this money trickles down. In other words, if this person is now making the fantastic sum of $2 a day, this will trickle down through the community to spark other development or increase the standard of living for folks.