Evidence of meeting #6 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 39th Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was cida.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Yasmine Shamsie  Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University
Andrew Thompson  Research Associate, Centre for International Governance Innovation
Suzanne Laporte  Vice-president, Americas Branch, Canadian International Development Agency
David Beer  Director General, International Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police
Yves Pétillon  Program Director, Haiti, Cuba and Dominican Republic Americas Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

I want to pick up, Professor Shamsie, on your answer to Mr. Wilfert on the local elections. There's a broad consensus among donor countries and among the folks who have been running the elections, as we heard yesterday, on the importance of going ahead with the municipal elections relatively soon.

There's a lot more concern about the local elections. The result would be 9,000 more officials on the public payroll, more rounds of elections to hold, and the argument is that there simply aren't the resources available. Haiti can't afford that many elections. Redistricting would have to be done, and they don't have a clear constitutional definition of what they'd be doing in any event within the structure.

Your view is very much in contrast to what we've heard from those others. What's your comment on the resources being diverted there instead of to other places?

4:30 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

Are you saying there are only so many resources and that donors don't believe they should be going towards something like municipal elections?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

Municipal elections, yes; local elections, not yet. They're not in a position yet where they have the districts arranged and have a clear definition of what they would do. They'd put 9,000 people on the payroll, which they can ill afford right now, simply in those positions, and they'd rather see those reserves directed elsewhere as they build up.

4:30 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

Is that the Haitian government's position?

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

I haven't heard it from the Haitian government, but we've heard it from the people we've had there internationally running the elections, and we've heard it from the other donor groups, the people working on the ground. Your view is a very different one.

4:30 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

Yes. My view is that donors only have so much funding that they've made available for this and that donors tend to prioritize big showy national elections. I see the point—the national election is essential—but if we really want to provide the kind of participation needed and build from the bottom up, it takes time, money, resources, and so on.

It's always a choice, but if you asked Haitians and the Haitian government, when the time is right once these things were in place—I didn't know about the redrawing of districts, and hadn't read about it—I think the Haitian government, if it could get the funding, would want to have these kinds of elections.

It's also a question of the moment. This is a kind of third moment that I see for Haiti. The first moment was when Aristide was elected in 1991. The second moment was when he was brought back to power and the military was booted out in 1994. This is the third moment, and I'm afraid it's the final moment. I really feel that Haiti needs to be given every possible chance, and local elections are important if we want to do development from the ground up.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Ms. Bourgeois, you have five minutes.

May 31st, 2006 / 4:30 p.m.

Bloc

Diane Bourgeois Bloc Terrebonne—Blainville, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ladies and gentlemen, thank you for being here. Your testimony is extremely interesting and important.

My question is for Mr. Thompson. In your document, you talk about a culture of impunity, abuse of power that is widespread in the police force. That does not come as a surprise, since we have heard about that before. However, Canadian assistance to Haiti, CIDA assistance, has enabled the Royal Canadian Mounted Police to participate in or coordinate the participation of a number of Canadian police officers in successive missions to Haiti. Since 1994, the RCMP has been in Haiti. On February 22, 2005, Mr. Zaccardelli made a speech in which he lauded the services of the Royal Canadian Mounted Police in Haiti.

I am extremely surprised that there is such widespread abuse and so much impunity. Given the length of time that Canada has been there, how is it that it has not been possible to put an end to that? There have even been Haitians who have come to Canada for training so that they could go back to their country with at least a minimum capability to maintain security properly.

How is it that we Canadians have not been able to eliminate that culture of impunity, after all the efforts that we have made? What would Canada have to do to fix that?

4:30 p.m.

Research Associate, Centre for International Governance Innovation

Dr. Andrew Thompson

There are two points. One is that there are elements of the Haitian National Police that take their duties very seriously and elements of the force that are doing the best they can given the circumstances. There is a rogue element of the Haitian National Police force that has used the position for personal gain and has committed human rights abuses, and these continue. The need is there to vet them, and under Security Council resolutions, UN forces have the authority to vet the abusive elements of the national police. It's a question of having the resources and the political will to do it.

So following through on UN Security Council resolutions is one thing. In terms of the culture of impunity, there's a long tradition of impunity in Haiti, and it involves more than just the police sector. It involves actually bringing human rights abusers, both past and present, to trial and ensuring that the court system is able to try them in a fair and equitable manner.

These are not easy things to fix, and they will take time, but they are priorities that have been outlined by the UN. This may not seem like a very satisfactory answer, but it's a question of seeing it through and not settling for expediency or quick fixes.

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

May I add one thing?

Although Canada has been generous in this area, we haven't sent that many police officers, given that CivPol is at 1,500. Right now, we have 100 police officers, we sent 25 extra for the elections, and the head of CivPol is a Canadian, but there are 1,400 or 1,300 other officers from different countries—and they've had different levels of success.

When I was there in 1998-99, countries from West Africa had the best success relating with Haitians on the ground, and so on. I don't think we can say that Canada sent over half of CivPol forces to help train the police. It was a small contingent out of 1,500. So we have done something very good, but in terms of training, it hasn't been as large in sheer numbers, given that 8,000 police officers had to be trained.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Just a very quick statement, Ms. Lalonde.

4:35 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

I would like to point out that, when it comes to recognizing mistakes, CIDA has said that it is in the area of security where there have been the most problems. However, training new police officers has been a very good thing, but there were not enough of them. Then when Aristide came back, he politicized the police. When that happens, it takes away the justification for a police force that we are trying to train properly, that is to uphold the law and everyone's rights.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Okay, are you finished? All right.

In summary, there is one thing you did mention. Yesterday we had Elections Canada present, and also the chief electoral officers for the elections in Haiti. When we talked about the presidential elections, I think the voter turnout was 63% for the national elections, and they mentioned 30% for the local elections—up from 15%. Is that correct?

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Van Loan Conservative York—Simcoe, ON

It's legislative.

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Those were legislative. When you say 10% voter turnout, are you—

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

[Inaudible--Editor]

4:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

All right.

You also mentioned that CIDA applied strict conditionality. Have we been too broad in our mandate? Do you believe that we've been too broad? Or perhaps we have to become more focused?

We can talk about conditionality, but as governments that are sending money, certainly we expect accountability. A new government—and all governments—expect a certain degree of accountability with the money. Maybe you could give us a little clearer indication as to how you would define that we were too strict in the conditions CIDA had for how the money would be spent.

4:35 p.m.

Assistant Professor, Department of Political Science, Wilfrid Laurier University

Dr. Yasmine Shamsie

I think the conditionality that was applied in 2000 was because of the senatorial elections. It was because there had been some electoral irregularities during those elections, and it was to kind of push Aristide to either hold new elections for these seven senatorial seats or to somehow give up the seats or something. So it was to push him to change. That's what they were talking about when they talked about governance.

Of course he resisted, and it wasn't just Canada that pulled back aid. The IMF, the World Bank, USAID, and most of the OECD countries cut their aid to Haiti during that time. The situation was getting worse and worse.

So I see the point in that you want to push a government to do the right thing when it's questions of corruption or whatever, but I think this wasn't working. When it finally did work and Aristide was ready to give in, the political opposition in Haiti was basically asking, by that time, that he resign. In other words, that was the only thing they were willing to accept.

The international community at that point should have said, “Look, he's saying he's going to redo these elections; that's good enough. We're going to turn the taps back on.” Instead we sided with the political opposition and we still waited. We were waiting for the political opposition in Haiti to say, “Okay, these are terms we can accept”, when there were not going to be any terms that they could accept.

So I think we have to have some judgment on our side as well when we see an economic situation getting to the point of a crisis in that country, given the fact that Haiti is so dependent on foreign aid. We have to also make some judgments and say, “Well, you guys will have to work it out, but we think this solution, another set of elections for these seven senatorial seats, is good enough and we're going to turn the aid tap back on.” And I have to say this was the U.S. pushing this agenda. I don't know what Canada's position was on that, but I think it went along with the rest of the multilateral donors and USAID.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

Certainly we do appreciate your appearing before our committee today. I think it has been good. We've all learned and look forward to looking at your book. Thanks again for coming.

We will suspend briefly and ask the new witnesses to please take the seats.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Welcome back.

We're continuing our study of Haiti and multiple foreign policy instruments focused on Canada's involvement in Haiti.

This afternoon we are pleased to have with us Chief Superintendent David Beer, director general of international policing with the Royal Canadian Mounted Police; also, from our Canadian International Development Agency, Suzanne Laporte, vice-president of the Americas branch, and Yves Pétillon, program director for Haiti, Cuba, and the Dominican Republic in the Americas branch.

We welcome you to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development.

The procedure here is that we offer opening statements—I know a number of you have opening statements—and then we will move into questions from our committee members.

Welcome. The floor and the time are yours.

4:45 p.m.

Suzanne Laporte Vice-president, Americas Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

Thank you very much.

You'll recognize the gentleman sitting with me, who has been so kind as to offer me the opportunity to speak first.

I thank you very much.

4:45 p.m.

C/Supt David Beer Director General, International Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

Madame Laporte has the money.

4:45 p.m.

Vice-president, Americas Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

Suzanne Laporte

Mr. Chairman, you have the text in both languages, so I will be addressing the committee in both languages. I would first like to thank you for giving us this opportunity to appear before your committee on a subject that is of such importance to us.

The timing could not be better, since today Haiti is at the crossroads. I believe that those are the very words that Minister MacKay used yesterday. Neither Haiti's leaders nor the international community can or should once again disappoint such a destitute people, so eager to get out of the vicious cycle of poverty.

The massive voter turnouts throughout the electoral process and President Préval's speech about national reconciliation paved the way for sustainable development. But history reminds us that there is no development without security or security without development. That is why CIDA is involved in this area with so much determination.

There are many ways to define what we mean by security. I would like to start by clarifying that for CIDA and the international community generally, security rests on three basic pillars: the police, justice, and prison administration. We must address all of these in order to achieve sustainable results, because they are essentially all of one piece. This is the framework in which CIDA conducts its activities in the security sector in Haiti.

The challenges to be met are substantial. The national police force does not have enough police officers. It is ill-equipped and not up to professional standards. The justice system has major deficiencies. Inadequate jails overflow with inmates, some of whom are guilty; about others, we don't know. Think of a security system that is based on a ratio of one police officer for 2,000 residents, while in Canada the proportion is 1:500; in Europe, 1:450; and in the rest of Latin America and the hemisphere, about 1:600.

Canada's commitment to Haiti's security sector is also based on a whole-of-government approach. We rely extensively on the expertise of our colleagues from the RCMP and Foreign Affairs and on our own in-house expertise.

My remarks today will focus on three main points: the issues, our activities and achievements, and future courses of action.

First, there are five major issues in Haiti's security sector.

The first issue is the timeline. The lessons of the past teach us that, in a fragile state such as Haiti, the presence of numerous outside forces has a stabilizing but limited effect. This effect is temporary and has no sustainable impact, since these forces are a substitute for local security forces. This presence must thus be coupled with institution building and ongoing long-term efforts to develop professionalism. The long term is at least 10 to 20 years.

The second issue is political will. Haitian authorities must show political will if reform of the security sector is to succeed, otherwise, it will be impossible to depoliticize the security sector, professionalize the police service, and combat corruption. This political will was weak from 1996 to 2004. CIDA thus suspended its program and shifted to a new approach, which we will discuss later.

The third issue is a common vision of the reform process. All stakeholders involved in reforming the security sector must agree to work from common reform plans for police and justice, led by Haitian authorities. These plans must be developed in consultation with civil society, and a system must be established to coordinate the various stakeholders. A single vision is crucial to generate synergy and rally all stakeholders in the security sector.

The fourth issue is complementary actions. Security cannot be approached solely as a matter of control and repression, but also as an issue of socio-economic development. Thus, at the same time, major activities must lead to poverty reduction.

Finally, we must not underestimate the role of Haiti's social and cultural environment, in which we carry out our work. The lessons of the past clearly show that understanding this can make the difference between success and failure.

Let me turn now to the activities that CIDA has financed over the years and some of the results we achieved in the reform of the security sector.

From 1994 to 2002, CIDA supported a number of bilateral initiatives. It had to gradually withdraw from these initiatives, essentially owing to the Haitian authorities' lack of political will to deal with the problem to any significance. There was increased politicization and increased corruption, which caused CIDA to terminate its bilateral program in the justice sector in 1999 and in the police sector in 2001.

However, we did maintain through the United Nations some assistance in justice, human rights, and prison administration. There were sustained efforts also to strengthen the Haitian civil society. All these activities resulted in, for example, building a networking system between the public prosecutor's office and the courts, in training clerks, in training correctional staff, in the creation of an inmate database--imagine, they didn't even know many prisoners were in the prisons--and increasing, also, public awareness of civil rights and civil obligations, and we are working through international human rights norms.

The advent of the transitional government in March 2004 has now created a new political will, somewhat hesitant but sufficient for us to maintain our multilateral commitment and resume our programming in the security sector. As I said before, we realize there can be no development without security. First and foremost, however, security does depend on its government and on its citizens.

What have we supported since the advent of the interim government in 2004?

With respect to justice, we are working with the United Nations, the Organisation internationale de la Francophonie and the Organization of American States (OAS), as well as non-governmental organizations in Canada and Haiti to help strengthen the Ministry of Justice, improve present administration by training correctional officers, to establish a fair, accessible, and timely system of criminal justice. Finally, we are trying to improve present conditions and the respect for the rights of inmates.

To strengthen the police sector, CIDA funded the deployment of 100 Canadian police officers for two years under the leadership of MINUSTAH and administered by the Department of Foreign Affairs and the RCMP. We also sent 25 additional police officers to reinforce security during the elections. My colleague David Beer will provide more details on UNPOL.

Again with regard to the police sector, I consider this perhaps as one of the most important achievements of the past two years. We responded to the appeal by the Minister of Justice, who is responsible for the police, in developing a joint strategic plan. This reform plan was approved by the Supreme Council of the National Police which, to date, has provided a framework for the actions of the community as a whole. This plan also resulted in the creation of a new strategic development branch of the police, with technical support from Canadian experts and MINUSTAH.

Moreover, to offer tangible, visible proof of progress in the sector, CIDA funded a general survey and technical manuals for the repair of 20 police stations and 14 court houses that had been vandalized. Four of the stations are being repaired with CIDA funding, while information about the other 16 stations was shared with the other donors and MINUSTAH. CIDA has also funded the repair of four courts and the government of Haiti has repaired eight. We are currently re-establishing the legal infrastructure.

Finally, we are funding social appeasement projects in the hot spots of Port-au-Prince. I heard the Cité Soleil mentioned a number of times earlier. We have a presence there. These projects aim to support efforts to stabilize security by creating jobs and generally improving living conditions.

I would like to emphasize that all of these activities reflect the priorities that have been outlined in the Interim Cooperation Framework that was adopted by the international community and the Haitian government and that has been guiding all of the commitments from 2004 until now.

As far as the future is concerned, we are at a crossroads. We have a newly elected government in place, and so far this government has shown positive signals of political will to undertake genuine reform. The coming weeks will be decisive in defining the roles and the responsibilities of all our international stakeholders. It will underline that Canada does not act alone.

MINUSTAH's current mandate ends on August 15 and must be renegotiated. The Organization of American States is now redefining its mandate for its special mission. And we will know that there will be a pledging conference for the donors on July 25, most likely in Haiti, for the extension of the cooperation framework. All of these events will guide our future interventions.

Mr. Chairman, before closing, allow me to give you just a few insights of what we could do in the security sector in the future.

In Canada, the departments and agencies concerned are joining together to develop a new joint action strategy for the security sector. This strategy must reflect the priorities that the new government will outline in the near future and be consistent with the renewal of MINUSTAH's mandate.

Some avenues are already emerging. With regard to CIDA, there is a consensus among the Haitian authorities and members of MINUSTAH about its long-term role. We intend to focus on creating a new police academy to train officers, which will have a major impact on making this force more professional.

We will also continue our efforts to support NGOs that are active in the area of human rights.

Finally, we are working in very close coordination with the RCMP as it is deploying its police officers--and certainly my colleague David Beer will provide you with further details on this--and we are working in close cooperation with Foreign Affairs.

In conclusion, I want to reiterate that CIDA remains fully committed to the security sector, since the issues are critical to the development and recovery of Haiti's economy and stability, not only in that country, but also in the subregion.

I thank you, and I look forward to your questions and your comments.

5 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Madam Laporte.

Chief Superintendent Beer.

5 p.m.

Director General, International Policing, Royal Canadian Mounted Police

C/Supt David Beer

Thank you, Mr. Chairman, members of the committee--