Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 28th, 2008

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

I have one more quick question.

Yes, we want corporate social responsibility and all those wonderful things. But what would the effect on employment be if we continued to disadvantage some of the companies that are working there or we expected them to leave or we put pressure on them? You can't pressure China or India. They're too big to be pressured. They're not going to go anywhere. So let's get realistic and pragmatic. Rather than a protest movement, we have to look at it in a realistic fashion.

I'd like to receive your comments on the employment opportunities from divesting, or reduction of opportunities.

[David Tennant]

South Sudan, like many African countries, has no social safety net. If you have a job and that job goes into jeopardy, even if it's a bad company divesting, it's problematic.

However, I agree that what we should be doing is talking to people—and I will use Talisman because it has been used here today—talking to Talisman and saying, maybe you need to go back into south Sudan. I'm not sure the shareholders or the board of directors would appreciate that, but we should be encouraging responsible Canadian companies to invest in south Sudan.

[Wajid Khan, Conservative, Mississauga—Streetsville, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I'd like to add a quick comment. You're looking at your watch; we don't have much time.

Canada can only have influence if we invest. In Afghanistan, we are at the table. When you divest and pull out and put on pressure, you have no influence; you can't bring about any difference.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Khan.

We have to be careful, because divestment means that those without corporate social responsibility are asked to move out, not those who are showing leadership in corporate social responsibility. I don't think anyone has said that everyone should pull out of these conflict areas, but companies that aren't....

I'm going to go to Mr. Dewar, because I want him to have—

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'm glad for the clarification, because Mr. Khan—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

One other thing, Mr. Dewar. We will not be having committee business today. The steering committee will ratify on Tuesday. The table tells me that will still give them time.

You time hasn't started yet, Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I want to clarify two things, Mr. Chairman, for my friend across the way.

No one is talking about withdrawing all investment. I think Mr. Khan would appreciate that he wouldn't want to have anything to do with investment that does not help and actually hurts people. Yet we know that investments that we have, that you have, that I'm paying for through the CPP, are invested in Burma in some very dubious enterprises.

I also want to add that I can break bread with him and a couple of my friends from Sudan, who live with my mother right now, who were child soldiers. They would give you a tale that would tell you that we need to do something to change what has been happening. That's engagement. I look forward to that opportunity.

One of the things I mentioned to my friends across the way was that “The Harper government recently announced that it will introduce legislation enabling foreign investments to be blocked if they are contrary to Canada's national security interests.” That's a quote from January 22. I put that to my friend Mr. Obhrai in terms of policy options. I was simply suggesting that this is an option for us to go beyond just national security and to look at human rights as a possibility as well.

I would like to ask Mr. Millenson, and anyone else who may have some evidence, about what kinds of labour practices exist with some of these oil companies, and who's actually working and getting employment with some of these operations on the ground.

[Daniel Millenson]

Mr. Chair, generally these are capital-intensive industries that don't employ most people anyway. The targeted divestment model carefully excludes things like agriculture, which employ 85% of the population. Upwards of two-thirds of the workforces of these Chinese, Indian, and Malaysian companies are in fact foreign.

Finally, I would add that in fact pressure on these companies is working. Nine major companies have either changed problematic operations or left. The Chinese government has taken action by leaning on the Sudanese government to accept Resolution 1769 to allow UNAMID into the country. Clearly that's not being implemented, but this was a major shift from China's normal way of doing things, which is to be completely hands off and no talk about human rights abuses in other countries.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Millenson.

Mr. Goldstein.

[Ira Goldstein]

I'd just reiterate that the steps we've seen China take, I think, can mostly be attributed to economic pressures such as we've been talking about. It's not normal for them to do that, and they're stepping out of their normal role to do it because of pressure such as we're talking about today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Tennant, did you want to—

[David Tennant]

I have a very quick comment, Mr. Chairman.

I think the best way to encourage Canadian companies and other companies is to make them put up a plan that shows the benefits to the people of south Sudan or the people of Sudan, so that they are operating training systems.

The Chinese are not only in oil; they're in everything in south Sudan, and the majority of the workers are coming from China. The menial labour is being done by the Sudanese or Ugandans or Kenyans, but the management is being done by the Chinese, and all of the technical expertise is coming from China.

That has to change. That's what I would like to see: that companies are asked or that the government, if it can pressure, says that when they go into that country they have to put in a training program that allows the south Sudanese or the Sudanese to take over that operation or to set up in competition with them.

That's how we built the Canadian economy.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Mr. Chair, perhaps I could ask our guest to provide the committee with a couple of examples and actually put together a synthesis of what you've just explained to us about how the divestment and the economic pressure on the Sudanese government through China, and pressure on China, actually was, in your opinion, a positive variable in terms of having China come to the table. A lot of us who have been following the file have noted that there have been some positive changes through China perhaps putting pressure on the Sudanese government. Because we will be coming back to this, if you could provide that to our committee, that would be most helpful.

Thank you for your time today.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Dewar.

Again, I thank all three of you for being here and for making your presentations.

I apologize on behalf of the committee for seeming to rush through this last hour. Especially in minority governments, when the bells are ringing and the votes are happening, we tend to want to get back there. So thank you.

We are adjourned.