Foreign Affairs Committee on May 29th, 2008

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Good morning, colleagues. Welcome.

This is meeting 33 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, Thursday, May 29, 2008.

Today we're continuing our consideration of our subcommittee's draft report on the Canada-China bilateral human rights dialogue.

We will hear testimony today by video conference. In our first hour, appearing as an individual, is Reverend Jian Miller Zhuang. He was born in south China and was a young communist and youth leader. He came to Canada in 1981. Since 1996 he has travelled back to China a number of times, working on social and community development with orphans, youth factory workers, and youth at risk; working in recovery programs with men; doing family and marriage enrichment; and providing consultation and counselling to China law enforcement personnel.

Via the new technology, we're very pleased to welcome Reverend Jian Zhuang with us this morning.

Can you hear me, sir?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang, As an Individual]

Yes, loud and clear, and I will say good evening from Hong Kong.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

And we'll say good morning from Ottawa.

We look forward to your comments. I'm not certain if you have appeared before a committee before, but we would appreciate your comments of approximately ten minutes, and then we will go into a question and answer time. We'll begin with the official opposition, then go to the Bloc Québécois, then to the government side, and then to the NDP.

Reverend Zhuang, welcome. We anticipate your remarks.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

This is a wonderful opportunity to see you all, from Hong Kong and also part of China.

I'm very pleased to be a Canadian working inside China and also, as a returnee, to be helping with development on a social level and also in all different areas for development in a country like China.

First I would like to say I very much appreciate what the Government of Canada is doing with regard to China, even in history. The Government of Canada is playing a very important role in social development. In that sense, we have great respect for Canadians and their contribution to China over all these years.

As a Canadian working in China, even though I'm Chinese in appearance, I think people here probably respect me as a Canadian. I am very proud to be a Canadian serving and working inside China. As I said, I'm mostly working in social development, so I have a different level of commitment and a different level of service in relation to the Government of China and also to some social committees of China.

Today China is changing. It continues to change more and more. I'm very appreciative of the changes, and I am looking forward to more changes and developments for individuals and also for communities. I see this progressing. The leaders of China are more open than before to suggestions and opinions. For example, at this time, with the Sichuan earthquake, I definitely see the Government of China changing tremendously. It has opened the door to foreign help on many levels. Actually, tomorrow morning I will be in the Sichuan area, right after this meeting. One of the things happening is our helping and working together, using and applying some Canadian systems to help surviving families and children grieve and heal.

One of the things they have asked for is to copy and also get references about our system in Canada, about victims services and grief counselling. I'm proud to be a Canadian and to be part of that. I will be meeting some of the key counsellors and we will introduce this kind of approach.

Also, they are really concerned about personal rights. I really appreciate that they want to rebuild the country and at the same time open the door to outside help. This is what I am experiencing.

For the last five years, due to my family's business basically related to law enforcement, I have had many opportunities to deal closely with law enforcement and with human rights issues. They are the first ones, the first good that can be considered. I am serving with them and am trying to introduce some of the working environment of our RCMP. I worked with victims services with the RCMP before, and we're very pleased to know them and, through them, this system.

Just to give you my remarks on that, I see that China basically is changing to a way that is more open, with more respect for the value of the human being. Of course, there are some things that need to be considered. China does have an eastern culture, I would say, an Asian culture as background. That is a little different from the western culture. Individual rights are still not in first place. Government rights are still the first priority.

This is the Chinese culture at this point, but I see that the government is more open to receiving opinions and to listening to the voice of the people, especially the People's Congress. Each time they hold a People's Congress, we really see the suggestions and opinions from the grassroots level.

That is my input for this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Zhuang.

We'll go into the first round of questioning, and we'll ask Raymond Chan to direct the first questions.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Welcome to the committee, Reverend Zhuang. It's nice to see you, even though it's via the television. We haven't seen each other for at least five or six years, I guess.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

I was so very pleased to hear you're doing so much in China. There are quite a number of issues that we want to deal with in this committee. One of the areas is underground churches. I know you have been working with quite a number of them over the years. Could you tell us what the situation has been with the underground Christians for the last few years? How is what is going on now different compared to five and ten years ago, and what do you see as the future of those people who worship Christ underground?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

I will compare it to ten years ago. I first started working directly with the underground churches in 1996. After five years, basically I worked with both the government church and the underground church. Even today, we do hold conferences and leadership training sessions among both. We see they are more open and that there's more awareness on both sides.

There are also more underground churches becoming open churches that are registered with the government. They have found a benefit to working with the government on the social level. If they remain underground, they cannot participate at the social level, so there are more and more open churches.

Yet I think the government is probably still watching and looking after some underground churches. If they do see some so-called illegal activities, they will intervene, but mostly what we see is more and more open even to the underground churches. If the underground churches really just worship, obey the law, and basically keep their numbers at a level that is not threatening, it is still legal to do that. In some areas—probably in the larger areas—the government still respects those activities.

Of course, one part of my work is also to try to encourage the underground churches to learn to register with the government and to understand that they need to be light and soft in public, and then they do so. I work from the north to the south, the west to the east, in the underground church network. They respect our contribution because they see the benefits.

This earthquake is really one of the examples. A large number of so-called underground churches are participating in these activities. What they do is register with the government to do that, so I see that the persecution we're used to now occurs less often than it did before.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

What's the difference between a government-registered church and an underground church? What kind of control does the government have on those registered churches? When you say the underground churches have to be very careful, have you seen any people arrested by the government, such as the leaders of those underground churches, in the last five or ten years?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Five years ago there were more, but actually today there are fewer arrests of leaders. In the last two years basically the number of those jailed is less.

In the government church and the house church, the difference is the registration. Some of the churches had to close because of their numbers, and also they were meeting in places where the building was not safe. So basically the government comes and lets them know. First the police will come or maybe the religious bureau will come and let them know; they will write down their names and warn them that there is a safety issue or maybe their numbers are too big and they are bothering the neighbours, and they ask them to consider respecting that. If they continue to do that, after the third or fourth time they will send the police to warn them. That is the procedure.

I grew up in a police family, and most of my friends are still working in the police force. That's the procedure. They will not at first come to the scene. They will be asked by the religious bureau to come and interfere. They have to do that according to the law. If there is a request made by the police.... The church can sue them and ask a lawyer to represent them, or just go with some people and do some legal matters.

[Raymond Chan, Liberal, Richmond, BC]

The government knows of the existence of the underground churches. They know they are there. They know their numbers.

Do they interfere when the outside Christian world tries to work with the underground churches? Do they get interference from the government?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes, sometimes, especially with foreigners. They will be careful to do that because they are still under the surveillance of the government.

I do have some colleagues who were very politely asked by the police of China to leave the country. The leader had to write down their names and register their activities, but no arrests are taking place.

This happens in Beijing and it is happening in Shanghai. Sometimes they have activities in a hotel, and their number is 100 to 200 people. Basically they didn't register their activities with the government. They are foreign activities. They have to register first. If they are working in the open and register with the government, this can be done.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Reverend Zhuang.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Thank you, Chairman.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

We'll now move to our colleague from the Bloc Québécois. Madame Barbot, you have seven minutes.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Reverend Zhuang, you said there is an established procedure to deal with underground religions. There is often a difference between procedure and what actually happens. I would like you to tell us about the present treatment of so-called underground religious communities in China. First, what is it that makes them underground and how are they treated when there are problems?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

I think you probably all understand that China is dealing with 1.3 billion people, and the landscape is very large. I can say there are procedures in certain areas and in the practice of law, and they still need time to proceed and they need time to educate. It's also a matter for those departments or those places....

For religious activities in China, of course, the procedures are already set. The first interference will come from the religious bureau, in whatever matter, such as with the Muslims, the Christians, the Catholics, or the Buddhists. The religious bureau will be the first one to follow up all those matters, regardless of where. The police really interfere by saying they threaten what they call the community's safety. That's what they come for.

I don't know if I've answered your questions.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

Yes, it’s all right.

The issue of human rights is obviously the one that we are most interested in. There are presently specific cases of human rights violations. The Canadian government is looking for the best way to deal with the Chinese government. Since you are both Canadian and Chinese, you may be able to tell us about how we can best intervene. Should we publicly question the Chinese government, that is make them aware of the cases we are concerned about, or should we provide them with a list? I am thinking of the list of issues that we are concerned about and the list of people who have human rights problems. What do you think is the best way to deal with this?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

My opinion as a Canadian Chinese--well, a Chinese Canadian--is that in the Chinese culture, probably one of the main outstanding things is that everything has to go with harmony as a whole. An individual has a vote; this is very western. For China, basically an individual has to respect holistic harmony.

I think as a Canadian government we probably do have a way to keep the relationship and then also to build a bridge with the government of China to let them hear your voice, and then also to build a relationship. I think probably one of the key issues for China to improve in human rights issues is to keep the relationship, and then to build a relationship with the government from the government level. That's really helpful, because Chinese really respect Canadians.

Also, I think that in terms of the historical background, the relationship remains open, and yet I think they will learn from the best of the Canadian system. Then they will implement that in time.

[Vivian Barbot, Bloc, Papineau, QC]

If I got that right, you think that the relations between China and Canada are good and that Canada can influence China on the human rights issue. However, I did not really understand how this can be done. Should the Canadian government talk to the Chinese government about specific cases? Should it rather provide them with a list of people whom we know have problems? In other words, should this be done publicly or is it better to deal directly with members of the Chinese government?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

I think probably both ways are a means. I think from the government level it's to build a relationship with the government. Then also, of course, it's China; as Chinese, we will probably consider it a face issue, which is.... I don't know; the west should be looking at that. In a face issue, basically they want to protect the image of the government.

In a relationship and if there's a relationship between both countries, I think we can directly mention some of the names to the government, and then also in a respectful way let them consider those people, or those issues can be studied or can be worked with by both governments concerning those people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We'll go to Mr. Goldring, please.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You mentioned earlier that Asia has a different culture from that of the west. It puts government first rather than citizens. Is accepting that as a truism not part of the difficulty? This is not to criticize China per se, but the process we've been using.

We've been hearing many comments on inadequacy of approach and needing to enhance it, to renew it. What I'm looking for are real suggestions on how that could be done. There was mention one time of utilizing this committee study of a democracy group, to see if that couldn't be partially incorporated into it.

My concern here is that if there is this.... I'm not sure if this is true for all of Asia, but it may very well be, as China is advancing into the more modern global economy. It's not necessarily that this is an actual cultural establishment. Is it not that they haven't had the necessity to have that type of citizen interaction in the past and now it's a learning experience of how to do it?

Maybe you could offer some suggestions on what we could do to re-engage, if we do so, and how we can do that differently so we address some of those concerns and make more concrete gains on the human rights issue. It seems to have rather flatlined and not advanced as far and as fast as it should and could.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

I think China is advancing, but probably not at the speed we would like to see. I want to see that advance more too.

I see that China is opening the door more and more now. Of course this year is very critical, with the biggest event in history--Olympics 2008. They have to consider two things. They have to consider the security, which is for the well-being of the whole country, but at the same time open the door for more things to come. The balancing of this is a bit difficult.

I see China dealing with some of the key issues of their essential government, which is group decision-making. It influences them, and maybe it hinders them. Also, there's a gap in between.