Foreign Affairs Committee on May 29th, 2008

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

In March 2004 the Chinese government amended for the second time the 1979 constitution. One of those amendments was to recognize human rights as a constitutional principle. The Chinese government signed a number of international conventions on women's rights, children's rights, and a lot of things like that.

Do you see this going on, or did they just sign it for the pleasure of signing it and to please the international community? Or do you see some changes within China?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes, definitely, I see changes. Especially, as a Chinese person, I see our main leaders, the chairman and also the prime minister, for example, these two, visiting disaster scenes—snow storms, and also the earthquake site. For the first time in my life, I see the prime minister arriving on the scene on the first day already and caring about individuals, caring about people's lives. I think this is probably the improvement, setting an example to influence a different government level. I think the key leaders taking part in saving lives, treating those as more important than their daily work, is a great example of improvement.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Also, I think their opening of doors to other foreign assistance, even to the frontier of the earthquake, is definitely something that's changing in China.

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Reverend Zhuang.

As the chair, I would like to use my prerogative to ask a number of questions, because I found this remarkably interesting.

Canada views China as a very important trading partner, a very important player, especially with the growing economy China has. We certainly want to continue a close relationship with China. We understand the importance of two-way trade, exporting and importing from China, but we also want to help effect change when it comes to human rights violations or the perception of slow growth in the principle of human rights.

Are you aware of the group Voice of the Martyrs?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You are aware of that organization. They have video that I received where there's a picture of a crane tearing down a church in China.

Does that type of thing happen in China?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Not often.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Not very often?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

I do know the church. There is some other story behind that. When they show that building being destroyed, sometimes we find out there are some other stories behind it. There are some other issues dealing with that building. Basically, the building code and the construction of the building is something they have to deal with in terms of local laws.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Another question I have—because I have about four quick little questions—is are all provinces in China equal when it comes to the governance of those provinces? For example, do we have more religious freedom in some provinces than in other provinces? Is it because there may be a governor who may have a heavy hand on some of the churches? So is there a difference between provinces or between local governments?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Yes, there's a difference, for sure, because different governors have different ways of controlling their own places. Definitely, yes, it's different.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You've already talked about the numbers of the churches and how the authorities try to hold the numbers down, but what would constitute a church conducting an illegal action? That is, you also stated that sometimes church activity can interfere with the community. Give me an example of what might interfere with the community. For example, would singing hymns or singing in worship constitute an interference in the community? Would it be interference if someone were to approach someone outside the church and ask them about their faith?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Well, I think definitely it is not just the noise issue. Sometimes there are too many outsiders coming and going in the community. Also, you see, China has a lot of high-rises being built right now, and in the cities they have what they call secure villages. So basically that is what they will see.

Also, of course, in some places they do what you would call confrontational evangelism. That sometimes does some real damage.

Of course those are not the only issues.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Does the government ever try to control the message of the church? For example, you are involved in social and community development with orphans. They may think that would be all right. Do they work with youth at risk or recovery programs? The social types of programs that the church may carry out would be accepted, but do they control the message of what we may call the gospel or the message of the scripture?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

If you're talking about control, it's only by our religious affairs bureau. They used to have to submit their sermons before they preached, but this has been changed for the last ten years. You don't need to submit the sermons, and the pastor or the minister of the church can create the message.

Of course there's one requirement: no political issues are to be brought up on the pulpit.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right.

You said that some have a tougher time applying for the licence than others. What denominations would have a difficult time receiving a permit in order to conduct a worship service?

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

Well, in China, basically there are no denominations--only Protestant and Catholic. So you can be registered under these two categories. It's not like in Canada and the U.S., where there are Baptists or Pentecostals. There are none here. In China, basically, if you are a Christian church, then you can register.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

All right. Thank you.

Our time is unfortunately pretty well up. We really want to thank you for your testimony today.

Again, Canada and China have what we call the bilateral human rights dialogue. It's not just a generic dialogue where we sit down and discuss; it is a format for how we come before each other and discuss human rights in each other's countries. That's what we're studying. We're trying to figure out if there is a better way of communicating with China. So we certainly thank you. From the perspective of your involvement with both the legal system, the policing, and also the religious aspect, you certainly have been of much help today.

Thank you. We wish you all the best there in Hong Kong, and God bless you.

[Rev. Jian Miller Zhuang]

You too. Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much.

We're going to suspend for a few minutes, and then we will come back with our next guest.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Committee, we'll call you back to order here.

In our second hour we're very pleased to have with us Thomas In-Sing Leung, professor at the Culture Regeneration Research Society.

Dr. Leung has been focusing on the study of Chinese history and philosophy throughout his years of education and right up to the present. In 1999 the International Biographical Centre honoured Dr. Leung as one of the century's outstanding scholars. He was also elected as a member in the Five Hundred Leaders of Influence in Cambridge, England. He has produced some 29 books, more than 150 academic articles, over 5,000 articles, and 100 message tapes and CDs. He is also a well-known radio talk show host.

We certainly want to welcome you here today, Professor Leung, and we look forward to what you have for us. If you would give us your comments for approximately ten minutes, we will then go into questions that the members of Parliament here in Ottawa would have for you.

I hope we're coming through loud and clear, and again, welcome.

[Dr. Thomas In-Sing Leung, Professor, Culture Regeneration Research Society]

Thank you.

I have a long paper, eight pages, on the observation of the human rights issue in China, but I summarized it in four pages.

I was born and educated in Hong Kong. I received my PhD in the United States, majoring in Chinese philosophy.

In 1993 I began my work in China through the Culture Regeneration Research Society to promote the concept of compassion and human dignity as a replacement for the ideology of class struggle in communist China.

CRRS has a Christian background and is a charitable non-government and non-profit organization registered in Canada. CRRS is fully funded by overseas donations, having chapters in the U.S.A. and Hong Kong. CRRS has14 years of service, all on a voluntary basis, and no business affiliation, nor has it made any profits in the People’s Republic of China.

My work at CRRS is composed of three different levels.

First, I have dialogued with leading intellectuals in China and have published an academic journal in Chinese called Cultural China.

Second, my organization and I have tried to help China develop better governance. In 1999 CIDA sponsored CRRS’s Pure Heart Culture, an anti-corruption project. Officials from mainland China came to observe the Canadian way of governance. This was well supported by both the Chinese and Canadian governments.

From that time on, I was invited by the Chinese government to give suggestions toward ongoing socio-political reform. I have written more than ten documents that provide suggestions for political reform relating to issues such as human rights, religious freedom, social reform, and the regeneration of communist ideals.

Third, CRRS is involved in promoting education for the underprivileged in China. Since 2002 in Guangxi province alone, we have helped six counties, sponsoring more than 3,000 students and teachers to achieve their dream of education.

The following six points are made from my observation of my experience in China over the last 14 years.

I was invited several times to meet with high officials in China’s state department and the United Front department to share my critical opinion on human rights and religious freedoms. They answered my criticism with well-structured documentation and explained that much of the information from the hostile overseas press is not accurate. The Chinese government allowed me to travel freely in China to verify whether the human rights distortion was accurate according to the western press.

During that time, I travelled to many provinces in China. I have talked to the press: reporters, editors, and professors of communication in China. Also, I had the chance to talk to many intellectuals and classes of people in China. From my evaluation, the press has 90% freedom and 10% restriction--of course, it's not as good as the Canadian press, but it has only a 10% restriction, in my evaluation--especially on political issues or issues that may influence the masses and create negative feelings toward the government.

In my discussion with scholars who worked on legal reform of legislation and laws, they said they are currently working on some new laws regarding human rights. They discovered the expected chaos and trouble did not happen. On the contrary, the new human rights laws made the society more stable, and now the government is more willing to bring in more reforms in this direction. Also, on TV, I found the government sometimes taught people about what kinds of rights they have.

Once I was invited to give opinions in an inner consultation group about religious policy. I boldly talked about abandoning the atheistic presupposition of communism to allow people of religious faith to join the Communist Party.

I suggested that the control and supervision of the three-self church should be given to the Christian committee in China instead of to the government. I also suggested that the Chinese government abandon its laws against religion and give complete freedom of religion. My documents were highly regarded in that conference and were used as the first document opened for discussion during the government official meeting. Some officials found out that the Communist Party had already discussed all the above points. One deputy minister who worked with religious policy in China said that he would submit my suggestions to President Hu Jintao for consideration.

Fourth, I have worked in academic circles for fourteen years. In 2005 I was appointed chair of Christian studies at Sichuan University. Currently there are more than 50 Christian study centres in the universities of China. For one whole month, I was allowed to teach Christianity without any restrictions. I have not received any counsel or criticism from any Chinese officials. The only restriction is that Christians are not allowed to baptize any student or perform Holy Communion on campus.

CRRS has also sponsored a Christian study centre in Lanzhou University. And we promote religious dialogue between Islam and Christianity through the concept of peace. Some Chinese officials were there to observe this conference, and the government appreciated the religious dialogue.

Fifth, during my time in China, Chinese Christians, including some from the underground church, expressed that the government does not disrupt their meetings, as long as they do not cause any trouble, even though their existence is considered illegal. No persecution was carried out when I was invited by a group with a Christian background to give a public speech about thanksgiving. More than 500 university students gathered in a hotel to listen.

Sixth, since 2002, in my work in the rural area of China, CRRS has demanded the right to monitor the operation of all resources and finances of our education projects. Six out of seven counties have cooperated with us very well. We had access to the students we have sponsored and have received letters written by the students separately.

In conclusion, in my 14 years working in China, China has progressed very rapidly in its attempt to reform the legal system and to set up human rights statutes. Compared to 10 years ago, the atmosphere is much more relaxed than before. Compared to 30 years ago, the change could be considered a miracle.

The key point for understanding China is that it has been humiliated by western power for more than 150 years. These historical events have wounded the Chinese people as a nation and as a culture. A wounded nation needs healing instead of criticism, which can bring more injury. We need to help China develop human rights according to their own culture. Friendly advice and encouragement, instead of hostile criticism, is the only way to help this nation advance and reach the international standard of human rights.

To a mature government like Canada, my suggestion is to respect and encourage China instead of using hostile criticism. Any hostile attitude would wound the nation more and force them to reject any reform of human rights. I believe that a more positive approach to China is what the Canadian government needs to have.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Professor Leung.

We will go to the government round. I welcome Raymond Chan, for seven minutes.