Foreign Affairs Committee on May 13th, 2009

[Denis Tougas]

Thank you.

The fighting is now limited to eastern Congo. We are talking here not only about North Kivu and South Kivu, but also about a large portion of the eastern province, where the Ugandan Lord's Resistance Army is hiding out. So the fighting is limited to that region. It is, nonetheless, quite a large region. This is having an impact on nearly the entire population in that region, some four million people. If we include the surrounding regions, we are talking about eight million people. So it is quite significant.

With regard to your second question on resources—

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

Is the issue of mining resources and the fighting connected? We know that there is coltan in that region. Mining companies didn't go to Kivu for nothing. They are there because of the coltan.

[Denis Tougas]

Yes. You are correct. Canadian companies, I can assure you, are not mixed up in the fighting. As far as I know, only one Canadian company, Banro Corporation, which set up shop in Kivu in 2004, is still doing exploration. It is the source of extremely localized fighting because people are waiting. Exploration work has been underway since 2004 and people wonder when extraction will begin. The answer is as follows: once the company's shares on the stock exchange have sufficiently increased in value. That is my answer.

To the more important question that you asked, as to whether greater diplomatic representation within the country would help the situation, I would answer: of course. I am not in the best position. I told you about an advisor who is here with us. He could talk about this in greater detail, if you want to know more about it. Our opinion is that there has been a decrease. From having met all the ambassadors working throughout the region, I know that they had an excellent knowledge not only of the problems, but also of the players. They were able to talk with each of these players, which, in my opinion, is no longer possible at present.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Blais, it is your turn.

[Serge Blais]

I wanted to say that the fighting in the eastern part of the country is having repercussions throughout the entire country. It has a destabilizing effect both politically and in terms of security. As a result, progress or the process of democratization is impeded, for example. In fact, if there is fighting in one part of the country, resources and attention need to be mobilized. All of that has created a climate that is extremely favourable to the signing of unclear contracts. It seems to me then than the persistence of fighting in the eastern part of the country is having repercussions on all of the contracts being signed in the country.

There is something else I wanted to mention, which is Canada's leadership. We feel that there is some slippage. There were perhaps, when the Canadian embassy was re-opened in 1997, a number of initiatives supporting democratization, such as the inter-Congolese dialogue in support of civil society. Canada played a leadership role in that initiative. I think that analysts looking at the reasons why the election was successful think that it was in part due to the work done with Congolese civil society. Canada played a role in that regard. Since the election, Canada has no longer been around to deal with such issues. Since 2006, Canadian cooperation funds often contribute to projects designed by others. Canada is adding something to programs in which it plays no role.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Merci.

We'll move to Madame Deschamps.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

Do we have only five minutes, Mr. Chair? We want to give the witnesses time to speak.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

You have five minutes.

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

I will be very brief, because I'd like to hear from you, Mr. Tougas.

In 2007, you took part in a workshop on the responsibilities of mining companies. In the report that I read, participants said that the voluntary principle was not well-suited to the operational needs of companies. At the end, we see a commitment by the Government of Canada, the embassy, to sponsor workshops on ways to apply the recommendations set out in the report by the National Round Tables Advisory Group.

I don't know whether there was any follow-up to this. I put this question to people from Foreign Affairs and International Trade earlier. I think results were quite mixed. There was, however, a commitment that came out of it. I would like to know where this is going.

If we look at what is happening at present, we see that the mining companies are being fingered. What we're hearing in our offices from the civil society representatives is that there are serious environmental problems, among other things. We are also hearing that terrible things are being done in violation of human rights.

[Denis Tougas]

Are you talking about the Congo or about the National Round Table Advisory Group?

[Johanne Deschamps, Bloc, Laurentides—Labelle, QC]

It was a workshop that was held in 2007 in the Democratic Republic of the Congo to talk about the social responsibilities of companies. Your name appeared on the list of participants.

[Denis Tougas]

Of course.

As far as I know, I will say it again, there are now between eight and nine Canadian companies on site among the biggest. We always remain on the ground with the voluntary commitment of companies to apply their own internal policies on the environment and in other areas.

With regard to individuals who have visited the Congo, the nation has not been able—and is still not able—to assume its responsibilities. I can give you an example. Part of the Department of Mines burnt down. The mining companies built the new building. Just to give you an idea, only two government employees are conducting the feasibility studies of some 100 companies. Do you see what I mean?

Currently, companies are applying their own, self-defined standards on the environment, hiring, local development. In some provinces, such as in Katanga, there is a civil society and provincial administrative officials checking things out, but probably in light of the status quo.

What we have heard about the current situation is that the effects of the financial crisis mean that all companies, except for three, have actually stopped operations by laying off—putting on technical unemployment—large numbers of individuals. That's all. The only answer I can give you, is that, consequently, companies are being left to apply their own standards.

With regard to the Canadian Embassy, based on my experience, it is very vigorously promoting Canadian interests, in keeping with its mandate, I believe. This is problematic in a country that is one of the poorest economically speaking, but also one of the richest in terms of resources. The problem is figuring out what Canada's interests are. Do they take precedence over the interests of the people? Since the review and renegotiation of mining contracts has not yet been completed, it seems that, for the embassy, Canadian interests take precedence over the country's development.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Please be very quick. You have about 30 seconds, Madame Lalonde.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

What institutions need to be supported or created in order to introduce democracy? I understand that we are talking about authoritarian regimes.

[Denis Tougas]

The Congo has a Parliament that works, although with difficulty. During the last parliamentary session various decisions were made including ones on requiring audits of six systems such as mining contracts and crown corporations.

Speaking of institutions, the Parliament works and wants to work. However, we are talking about an African political climate, in a very young democracy. Clearly, there are attempts to curtail this.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Monsieur Blais.

[Serge Blais]

We feel that there can be a combination of supports for various institutions. For example, Mr. Tougas mentioned the Parliament. There are members of Parliament who were elected and who have the confidence of the public. At the same time, it is important to support civil society initiatives, civic education programs, so that the public can play a role. A policy on decentralization is being developed. Public participation is being encouraged. However, it will remain entirely theoretical without a program allowing for the training and education of the public, the establishment of local development committees, support for initiatives on governance, transparency and accountability at the local level.

There are many civil society organizations in that country that are prepared to work and that have already played a role in past progress that was achieved, but which are often forgotten. Mr. Lambert talked about the trend, since the Paris Declaration on aid effectiveness, to promote harmonization and cooperation by donor countries. However, this means that money is being sent automatically to multilateral agencies, which have difficulty working with civil society organizations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you.

I'm trying to reconcile some of the concepts we've been hearing, since this discussion is rather new to me but not to our witnesses.

Mr. Tougas, you were saying that stability and peace has returned to the area, at least compared with the terrible conflicts that were going on a few years ago. Now we're describing regional conflicts on the eastern side of the DRC.

Am I getting it right that the worst destabilization force in the eastern DRC is the LRA, which has come over from Uganda? Or is it other forces? Who is the worst destabilizing force in the eastern part of the DRC?

[Denis Tougas]

In the eastern province, meaning in North Kivu, you are correct, it is the LRA, the Ugandan rebels who are hiding out in the eastern province and who have taken control of part of that territory. Uganda, along with Sudan and the Democratic Republic of the Congo, tried to neutralize these foreign rebel groups. This joint mission was truly a disaster. They did not succeed in weakening this militia. On the contrary, now, it has reached into the Central African Republic. Again today, we are hearing reports saying that they remain active in that area.

Among the destabilizing groups, as you called them, there are still those groups called the interhamwe, the FDLR. The Congolese have been very careful to make a distinction between the FDLR, those who want to go back to Rwanda—they have their own demands—and the Rwandan refugees, who are not members of those rebel groups. Unfortunately, when we talk about these interhamwe, these FDLR, they get confused with that other group.

There is still that group called the CNDP, which was a group supported by Rwanda and which is now apparently about to integrate with the army. To date, based on reports, they have not yet been disarmed and are not yet part of the army. According to truck drivers who circulate freely in that region, they apparently still control part of the area.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Blais, very quickly.

[Serge Blais]

I would like to say a word about the rebels who have been terrorizing, raping and massacring the people for the last 15 years. These are not high tech armies with extraordinary resources. There are leaders who are well organized, but many of them are young people, adolescents who are forcibly conscripted. When we encounter them, we see young people in rags holding kalashnikovs.

I simply wanted to make an analogy with what happened in Sierra Leone in the 1990s. There was a rebel movement over there that controlled part of the territory. This is much like what is happening in Kivu. They completely destabilized the country and controlled an area that has mineral resources. There was a peacekeeping mission some 12,000 to 13,000 strong, which for a country the size of Sierra Leone was significant. For years, this mission was foundering and was ridiculed by the rebels. At one point in time, they kidnapped 500 members of the United Nations force at once. The entire country was subjected to rebel terror. Amputations were carried out. After the seizure of the 500 UN troops, the British government sent over 600 marines. Three months later, there were no more rebels. Elections were organized, and this country was able to embark on the path to peace.

Some claim that if, in the Democratic Republic of the Congo, there was a firm will and commitment on the part of the wealthy countries, the problems there could be solved as well. But there is no such will.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you.

Mr. Dewar.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests.

It is notable that in the last couple of days, about 60 to 90 people have been killed. As was mentioned, this goes on, this is regular. The sad thing is that this is normalized somehow, because we hear the stats and it gets washed away.

We've talked a little bit with department officials about some of the programs we're funding, and maybe some of the initiatives we should continue to fund, but one of the questions that didn't get asked, and you've touched on it, was on MUNUC. We know that they've been asking desperately for resources. It's a peacekeeping mission that has had the stamp of approval of the Security Council, so it's not a matter of waiting for a plan from the UN, which often is the case, because there is one in place.

First of all, would you agree that we should be supplying troops? When I was over there and talked to some of the Casques bleus, and some of the peacekeepers from Ghana and Africa, I asked, first of all, if they had seen any Canadians: “No”. Secondly, I asked if they would welcome them: “Yes”. We are seen as leaders, still.

Of course, as we go back to 2004, there were problems with the peacekeepers. They were actually abusing civilians, along with some of the others.

So they see us as being able to bring in some professionalism, some management that is needed. Do you agree that we should do that?

Secondly, if we look to corporate social responsibility and we look to Canadian companies, what is your opinion of where the government is going in response to the round table that was recently laid out by the government?

I don't have a preference; any one of you.

[Denis Tougas]

As far as the Canadian involvement with the MONUC peace mission is concerned, last December we accompanied a delegation of the Congo National Episcopal Conference, brought over here by Development and Peace, which came to plead for more Canadian troops. You are quite right: you may know as well as I do that the Pakistani, Indian or Guatemalan troops that are there are sent by their countries as a contribution to the United Nations and often, for the Guatemalans, they're under orders to take no risks. It is a peace mission.

I would mention operation Arthémis, organized by France in Ituri in 2003. Mitterand convinced the Prime Minister to make a contribution, to participate. Canada provided 60 soldiers and some planes. This strong intervention, with professional soldiers who had a mandate to take certain calculated risks, as a professional army does, managed to solve the problem within the space of five months. Therefore, I would answer yes.

As for your second question, I think that the government's response is a step forward, but if I put myself in the African context, in the Congolese context, it will not change much, it will not solve the problems. More must be done. I have in mind, in the Congo, at least two, three or four cases where indeed communities or people who were affected by the actions of mining companies did not obtain justice from the Congolese justice system. This is not coming from me, but from Louise Arbour. In one very specific, very particular case, justice was not rendered. This is a case where communities could have gone to speak to a representative, an ombudsman or to someone who could have received and assessed this complaint. There are other cases. One could say it represents some progress, but in my opinion, it will not solve the problems.