Evidence of meeting #21 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was list.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Excellency Bawoumondom Amelete  Ambassador of the Togolese Republic to Canada, Embassy of the Togolese Republic
Excellency Juliette Bonkoungou Yameogo  Ambassador of Burkina Faso to Canada, Embassy of Burkina Faso
Excellency Nana Aicha Mouctari Foumakoye  Ambassador of the Republic of Niger to Canada, Embassy of the Republic of Niger
Louise Ramazani  Minister-Counsellor & Chargé d'Affaires, a.i. of the Republic of the Congo to Canada, Embassy of the Democratic Republic of the Congo
Excellency Mouldi Sakri  Ambassador of the Republic of Tunisia to Canada, Embassy of the Republic of Tunisia
Excellency Honoré Théodore Ahimakin  Ambassador of the Republic of Benin to Canada, Embassy of the Republic of Benin

5:15 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Ambassadors, I would like to welcome you to this Committee. It is a pleasure to meet with you today. Like Mr. Bélanger, I am a member of the Canada-Africa Parliamentary Association. I have two or three quick questions I would like to ask, as time is short.

There is one thing I would like to validate with you. The Parliamentary Secretary to the Minister of International Cooperation, Mr. Abbott, said in the House of Commons that he had spoken to the ambassadors of those African countries that have been struck from the list of priority countries for Canadian aid. He asserted that these countries support the government's decision to remove them from the list.

I would like to know whether the Canadian government contacted you to make you aware of this decision, whether you were consulted or whether you found out subsequently.

5:15 p.m.

H.E. Bawoumondom Amelete

Thank you for your question. My country was not on the list, and therefore was not removed. I can tell you one thing, however. When you have something and someone comes along and takes it away, you cannot just say that you are happy it has been taken away. That would be very surprising, but what I do know is this: as Dean, I have discussed this information with some of the ambassadors. They told me they were never consulted. I believe Burkina Faso was removed from the list; the ambassador to that country can tell you whether she was consulted or not.

5:15 p.m.

H.E. Juliette Bonkoungou Yameogo

Thank you, Ambassador Amelete.

I can assure you, Madam, that we were not consulted. We never agreed to that. We were simply informed and, if memory serves me, the decision was already official by then.

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

Are there others who would care to comment?

We heard the Minister say a little earlier that international aid provided by Canada in 2010-2011 will represent 0.32% of Canada's GDP. According to an OECD source, Canada ranks 16th out of 22 donor countries. Seeing the way things are going, there is reason for concern. Indeed, experts are saying that, if poverty in Africa is not reduced by half and countries do not undertake to meet the Millennium Goals in 2015, your development will be delayed and you will be stuck in the cycle of poverty for another 130 years. Is that correct?

5:20 p.m.

H.E. Bawoumondom Amelete

Yes, it is. As my colleague from Burkina Faso said earlier, our countries must act, but we need help from our friends, particularly Canada. If Canada or other countries do not help us, that will certainly have a very detrimental long-term impact on Africa.

5:20 p.m.

H.E. Juliette Bonkoungou Yameogo

Madam, I would just like to add to what the Dean of our group has just said.

A short time ago, I attended a meeting in Montreal. On that occasion, the economist, Jeffrey Sachs, whom you are familiar with, and others as well, suggested that, even if it makes no additional effort to increase its contribution, Canada could host the next G8 Summit.

However, as friends of Africa, this is sad news indeed. It is very important for us that Canada again play a leadership role, by acting as the world's social conscience. Canada was known to Africans as a country that stood shoulder to shoulder with them, that protects human rights and promotes women's rights. That is how we have known Canada and why we love it. We are Canada's friends. For all these reasons, we want to say to our friend that it is time it returned to Africa and played an important role in international fora.

Thank you.

5:20 p.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

In closing, I would like you to give me some specific examples of projects that have been cut in your countries. Perhaps you could tell me what impact this has had in those countries that have been removed from the list.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We're out of time. If you want to incorporate it in another question....

I should also say that if there are questions and you feel because of our time that you haven't had adequate time to respond, you are welcome to put them in writing and correspond with us.

Mr. Abbott, please.

5:20 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

Excellencies, thank you very much for being here today.

I must say that I'm quite disappointed in this report. I think it has been based on erroneous information that has been given to you.

I'm reading, on page 4, “figures...show a downward trend in official public assistance to Africa for the sake of other countries of the world”.

Apparently, whatever your source of information was, they failed to tell you that in fact aid to Africa from Canada in the last three years has been doubled, to an amount of $2.1 billion. Given that it has not only doubled but that we have shown leadership not only in doubling it on time but in fact a year ahead of time—a year ahead of all of the other countries—I think it's really regrettable that you would write, “Are we to believe that our long-time friend Canada is leaving the place for others...?”

The fact is, our Prime Minister and our government have shown the kind of leadership you would expect in the world, shown that we are prepared to follow through on our commitments, that we are prepared to double our aid. The information you have received is obviously incorrect.

When you speak about Canada retaking our place of leadership in the context of a renewed strategy of partnership in a win-win situation, again, I am somewhat surprised that the fact that the aid has been doubled would not be taken into account. We don't have time to get into the issue of the targeted countries, but if you consider Africa...of the $4.3 billion that CIDA puts out to the world, $2.1 billion goes to Africa. I think the characterization you have made of the government and the people of Canada is really quite unfortunate. I know it must have come about as a result of some bad information you have received.

With respect to the people I have spoken to from the nations of Africa—I'm just trying to recover the list.... There are people at this table whom I have spoken to. I have spoken, I believe, to seven or eight nations; I was communicating the decision that the Government of Canada made. I know that all of you as ambassadors would respect the fact that when a country decides what it's going to do, it decides what it's going to do. The door of my office and the door of my minister are always open to have further discussions, so that there can be greater clarity as to exactly what is involved in the countries of focus.

You have been very direct with us, and I respect that. I hope you will respect the fact that I have been direct with you.

Thank you.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Abbott.

Whoever would like to respond, please go ahead.

5:25 p.m.

Louise Ramazani Minister-Counsellor & Chargé d'Affaires, a.i. of the Republic of the Congo to Canada, Embassy of the Democratic Republic of the Congo

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. The Congo has never been on any list.

I wanted to draw your attention to the problem of sexual violence against women and children. The Congo believes that Canada should play a leadership role by mobilizing the most powerful Western countries to put an end to the pillage of our natural resources, which is behind all the violence the Congolese people are experiencing, particularly sexual violence against women and children.

Mr. Chairman, we will have meetings and more meetings. CIDA can send its staff to the Congo, in relation to what is going on in two Kivus, but I believe that if Canada, which wields a lot of influence at the UN, does not help us put an end to this war, all the atrocities and sexual violence will continue. I also wanted to let you know that the funding provided by CIDA to the Congo through NGOs, is not benefiting women.

5:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you. Madame.

We're going to go to the question from Mr. Dewar, because we're out of time on that question. But if you want to respond again, you may.

Go ahead, Mr. Dewar.

5:25 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I just want to pick up on what the ambassador just finished explaining to us. We have other issues on the table here, and I don't think it's helpful for the government to deny that there's a change in their policy that is affecting Africa. You can argue numbers all day long, but the direction is going out of Africa. The minister certainly was laying that out for us, and I believed her.

I want to ask this of Her Excellency from the Congo, because I just returned from there. She touched on something, and I asked the minister this. I was kind of concerned that we have this one-way view that we put money into Africa, so we should see all these results. We're also getting a lot out of Africa. She referenced mining and her concern about—and others might share it—the conduct of Canadian mining companies in the region, and the benefits for the people in the region. In other words, it's not just the aid picture, which is very important, but also the economic developments. It's how Canada can improve our operations in her country to benefit the people and of course to deal with the horrendous situation of sexual violence that is occurring.

Your Excellency, I would like your viewpoint on how Canada can improve its operations when it comes to mining and the resource-based industry in the Congo. If there's time, I open it up to any of the other ambassadors.

5:30 p.m.

Minister-Counsellor & Chargé d'Affaires, a.i. of the Republic of the Congo to Canada, Embassy of the Democratic Republic of the Congo

Louise Ramazani

Mr. Dewar, we are told that time is short, and yet this is very important.

I believe I mentioned earlier that Canada has to show leadership and make contact with the other most powerful countries. It is essential that people carrying out operations in Congo do so legally. I am speaking from the heart. The fact that mineral development is being carried out illegally in Congo is a serious problem. In fact, it is the minerals that are leading to war, atrocities and sexual violence against women.

We can have as many meetings as we like, and organized forum after forum and, as I said earlier, CIDA can always send its staff there, but if Canada, which has a great deal of influence at the UN, does not help us put an end to this war, the problem will continue.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you.

I want to keep going for just for a couple of minutes once the bells start, but I'm going to need a motion.

5:30 p.m.

Some hon. members

Agreed.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Continue, please. Go ahead, Ma'am.

5:30 p.m.

H.E. Juliette Bonkoungou Yameogo

Thank you.

A very important question was asked about the numbers. I have to comment, because this is very important to us.

When we take a look at an issue such as this and do research, we rely on sources. While I do not have a very good understanding of English, I know that French sources say that, by reducing the number of countries on the list from 25 to 20 by 2010, bilateral aid will drop from 70% to 35%.

I don't know. I have asked others to have the material translated. The honourable member said the door is open, and I have noted that. He can be sure of one thing: I will keep going to see him until he chases me away, because development in Africa is very important to me and to my colleagues. That is our purpose in being here in Canada. I will go and see him often at his office. I want to thank him for his availability, but that is what the numbers mean.

5:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Ma'am. He's looking forward to it.

Yes, Mr. Ambassador.

5:30 p.m.

His Excellency Mouldi Sakri Ambassador of the Republic of Tunisia to Canada, Embassy of the Republic of Tunisia

Thank you very much.

I would like to come back to the issue that is the primary reason for our being here today, and that is the partnership with Africa. Africa is undergoing tremendous integration, consolidation and development. Development assistance is not the only focus of our effort today. That is not the purpose of our meeting with you.

We are proposing that our Canadian friends engage in development because, without economic and social development in Africa, development assistance will continue to be a problem. As we saw earlier, if that happens, poverty will continue for more than a century. Our appeal is really for there to be a partnership. Other partners, including China, India and the European Union, have heard that call.

In 2007, an important summit was held in Lisbon at which Africa and the European Union developed the framework for a new partnership between Europe and Africa. We laid the foundations for a significant and beneficial partnership between Japan and Africa. Today, we are calling on Canada to position itself as well. We would not like to see it have less of a presence in Africa, to the point where we would one day be wondering where Canada had gone. We do not want to reach that point. We are accredited ambassadors here in Ottawa. We defend Canada and Canadian interests in our countries, on our continent, but we also defend our own interests. We would like to see the establishment of a multisector comprehensive partnership between equals at a summit meeting between Africa and Canada. We could meet on a yearly basis, every two years, or at whatever interval you deem appropriate, but we do want to have a discussion with Canadians at the political, economic, social and cultural levels in order to study the idea of a major partnership, which would allow us to reach the level we are aiming for.

Yesterday in Toronto, I attended a conference organized by Canadian Manufacturers and Exporters. That important conference is held every year with a view to assessing Canada's economic and trade relations. What I am seeing jibes with the impression we have here as an African group—namely that, both politically and economically, Africa is simply not on Canada's radar. There is nothing dealing with Africa in Canadian policy.

Yesterday, I made a number of comments to Canadian entrepreneurs and business people who were debating their problems with the United States. The theme of the conference was Buy American. Of course, the Canadians were discussing and reviewing the issue of their economic relations with the United States. I told them that we have the same problem with Canada and that we would like to talk about it, just the way they were having that discussion about the United States. We would really like to see our Canadian partner seize the opportunities that Africa has to offer. Africa is truly a continent of hope, a continent of the future. Canada has an excellent reputation, and has plenty of means and possibilities. Why not develop and achieve significant progress together?

So, we are really making an appeal to you. We are not here to criticize the government or any other Canadian entity. We are inviting all Canadians and all the political and economic forces in Canada to establish a partnership with Africa. I am talking about Africa as a whole, because there is the Africa that is developing, the Africa that needs help, and the emerging Africa. Some countries, such as Tunisia, which is an emerging country, deserve Canada's support. I wanted to pass that message along, because it is a much broader question than just development assistance.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Merci.

Madame Lalonde.

5:35 p.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Mr. Chairman, before we all leave, would it be possible to quickly dispose of a motion proposing that we look at this at a future meeting? If everyone agrees, we could do that.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

If you want to submit a motion, that's fine, but we can't do it at this point unless we have unanimous consent, and I don't think we have unanimous consent.

I want to give just a very short question to our ambassador from Benin.

5:35 p.m.

His Excellency Honoré Théodore Ahimakin Ambassador of the Republic of Benin to Canada, Embassy of the Republic of Benin

Mr. Chairman, I would just like to thank you and make one suggestion. It is clear that the time we had available today did not allow us to express thoroughly and more eloquently the reasons why we came to meet with you today.

I have been an ambassador here in Canada for a year and a half now. This is the first time we have had a chance to meet. You are the national representatives of the people of Canada. As representatives of our countries, we are anxious to talk to you about the concerns of our people. Could we not find a mechanism whereby we could get together more often to talk and pass on our message, through you, to the federal government here in Canada?

I would also like to answer a question that was raised. We respect Canada's sovereignty. Canada is sovereign in all its decisions. Our purpose in coming here today was not to criticize a decision that had been made but, rather, to tell you that we are your partners. We would like to continue to be on Canada's agenda. Africa stands with Canada, but Canada has to provide strong signals so that we know it also stands with us.

Thank you.

5:35 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much.

I'll just say this. I know that a number of committee members do as I do; I meet probably two or three ambassadors a week, and I would encourage you to do that. It sounds as if a number of people are going to be meeting with Mr. Abbott. You're welcome to do that. And we look forward to meeting with you in the future.

Unfortunately, now, the bells show that we have to be at a vote, so we must make our way to the House of Commons.

Thank you so much for coming. Merci beaucoup.

We are adjourned.