Foreign Affairs Committee on Aug. 26th, 2009

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

I have a point of order, Mr. Chair.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Chair, will I be allowed to finish here or not?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

On a point of order, Mr. McTeague.

Now, we've had a couple--

[Dan McTeague, Liberal, Pickering—Scarborough East, ON]

This is the third insinuation, Mr. Chair, and if you're not prepared to ensure that the member can actually back up what he's saying.... Those accusations require clarification at least, and you stand as an arbiter; that is your job as chair. I suggest you do that now and get the member to ask the question of departmental officials. If he has something to say that is scandalous or is an attempt to scandalize any member of Parliament on this committee or any other committee, I suggest, Mr. Chair, you ask him to provide the evidence forthwith. If not, then he has an obligation to apologize, and you have an obligation, Mr. Chair, to make sure that happens.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. McTeague.

Mr. Obhrai, please continue. Point your questions to the witnesses. If you have an allegation to members of the other side, you need to make that public or not disclose it at this time. But in the meantime, let's continue with the witnesses.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Mr. Chair, yes, let's continue with the witnesses. The witnesses who have come here have expressed how the department works. I, as part of being in charge of the consular services, have explained that I work with all my colleagues across to see how we do that. Now, in the case...as I was mentioning about Ms. Mohamud, the department, as alluded to by the deputy minister, has said there is an inquiry, which will be made public. So the process is going on, which is the right and responsible way for any government to act. When there is a problem, we look at it and see how we can resolve it. So that is going on in this thing.

But most importantly, I want to say--and I want to say it to my colleagues across--be very careful when you are accusing a department or public officials of saying.... And let me quote you, since their motives...as he has quoted in this article that he's talking about. Be very careful. Our officials have a reputation of being excellent officials. Our public service is very highly respected around the world, and we must maintain that. They were members of the government; they know that. They should stand behind public officials, respecting what has been done and that we have one of the best professional services. However, when these things happen.... That is why this committee is very willing to look at what happened with Ms. Mohamud, to continue doing that, and the departments are here to see. And if there are any problems--a report is being done--then it is our responsibility to correct them.

But at the end of the day, please respect the public service. Do not start insinuating the sinister motives that you are talking about.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you very much, Mr. Obhrai. Your time is up, unfortunately.

Mr. Volpe, on a point of order.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Just trying to be helpful, I think that Mr. Obhrai has just given an indication that his government is prepared to make public the results of the inquiry that they've launched. In that spirit, is he prepared or is the government prepared to table the results of the investigation that has already been done?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

That's not necessarily a point of order. We'll move to Mr. Dewar.

Mr. Dewar, please.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you to our guests for being here today, and I hope they're going to be focused on the issues that we were to be discussing today.

I understand the rider you had at the beginning of your presentation that you can't discuss certain matters in a couple of cases. But there are perhaps some questions you could help us with in regard to how we conduct ourselves overseas.

To Mr. Edwards first, when our officials overseas are working with other officials, I take it that we train officials from other countries on how we would like to see our citizens, or people who present Canadian passports, dealt with. So Canadian officials, in fact, train officials from other countries. Is that the case?

[Leonard Edwards]

Well, we don't have training programs...or do you mean consular?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Let me be very specific. In the case of Kenya, do our officials brief their officials on our standards of passports and what to look for?

[Leonard Edwards]

I can't answer that specifically in that particular case--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

My understanding is that we do. Perhaps you can provide that information to us, and maybe Mr. Portelance can help with that.

My understanding is that our officials do in fact train--and I can understand why--on what the other officials should look for. To my understanding, we have officials who are training, in this case, Kenyan officials on what is a bona fide passport and what is not a bona fide passport.

Is that the case, Mr. Portelance?

[Leonard Edwards]

Yes, I think Mr. Portelance should answer that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you. Yes, I'd misdirected the question.

[Luc Portelance]

Mr. Chairman, we don't train officials of the Canadian government. The responsibility we have is to train the staff of airlines that are operating in that country and that are flying into Canada.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

So there's no training of our Canadian officials to officials from, say, Kenya or other jurisdictions on what our passports are, what to look for, and what to notify us upon?

[Luc Portelance]

I'm not aware of training. Now, there might be discussions, certainly, but I'm not aware of training. The only training I'm aware of is what the MIOs provide to various airlines so that they can respect their obligations under IRPA.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Okay, thank you.

Mr. Edwards--I think this one is for you--if a Canadian has come to a consular official with allegations of torture based on an experience they've had in another country, is there any code or any obligation for the consular official to report that to their superiors? Are their superiors to report it to you and to the minister? So if I'm in a jail, or if I've been incarcerated and I've been tortured, is there any obligation for Canadian consular officials to report that up the chain?

[Leonard Edwards]

I don't know if you'd call it an obligation. There's certainly a duty.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Okay. But there's no written law that says you must.

[Leonard Edwards]

No, but I know from my long history in the department that--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

It would be a normal thing for someone to do.

[Leonard Edwards]

It would be a normal thing, right.