Foreign Affairs Committee on Aug. 26th, 2009

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

So let me ask you something now. You have before you a letter from me. It's marked “Urgent”. Have a look at it. It was just distributed to you.

When did you first see that letter? It's the one that's marked “Urgent”, the June 18 letter. It's a letter to your minister.

[Leonard Edwards]

Well, this is the first time I've seen this letter.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

So you're not aware that this letter actually came into the system at all?

[Leonard Edwards]

I am not aware that this letter came into the system. I heard, subsequent to the news about the particular case, that you had written a letter.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

But you knew of its existence before—

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Volpe, try to keep your questions through the chair, and also, just give him the opportunity to finish answering his question.

Thank you, Mr. Volpe.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Go ahead.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

You're doing a good job. It's through you, but out of courtesy, I'm looking at him.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Right.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

When this file was handed over to CBSA exclusively, did he or his replacement brief the minister on the fact that this file, which is now the subject of a lawsuit, had gone over to a colleague in cabinet?

[Leonard Edwards]

Since I wasn't here when all of this occurred, I'm not in a very good position to provide a briefing on it. As well, I do think we are beginning to enter into territory that could well be part of the litigation, and I'm reluctant to enter into it.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I respect that, so what I'll do is to refer him to a letter he received—or had to have received—on May 28 from the first secretary of consular services, which indicated that there were conclusive investigations.

Now, I can't give him that because it's not in both official languages, but it says, “Please be advised that we have carried out conclusive investigations”—plural—and have found that she is an imposter. Now, your department didn't conduct those, but his department, the CBSA, conducted those investigations.

Monsieur Portelance, how many reports did CBSA make available to your colleagues and his colleagues in Foreign Affairs?

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Thank you, Mr. Volpe.

I believe the question is to Mr. Portelance.

[Luc Portelance]

Mr. Chairman, going back to our opening comments, I think I have to agree with my colleague that it feels as if we're getting into precisely the territory we were proposing we should avoid.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

Mr. Chairman, I object to that, because we're not. I'm trying to get or establish an indication of which investigations were conducted, which reports were handed from one minister to another, and what the lines of communications were.

I haven't gone into the issue. I don't think that either Mr. Portelance or Mr. Edwards, in fairness to this committee, could come before this House committee and say, I'm sorry, I can't talk about something; I'm sorry, I didn't know.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Volpe, I think in fairness to our witnesses today, these witnesses are not expected to comment on cases that are before the courts, specific individual cases on which litigation is proceeding.

So I appreciate your question, and we may be able to come back to it in a generalized way, but these are very specific cases, as the witnesses have suggested, which are before the courts.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

But let me respect your interpretation. Mine is a procedural question that has nothing to do with the substance of the matter at hand; it has to do with the process.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Well, it's a very specific question dealing with a very specific case, and that is why you have the specific letter in regards to the Mohamud case.

[Joe Volpe, Liberal, Eglinton—Lawrence, ON]

I haven't asked anybody to refer to the questions listed on page 2 of that first letter, but I am asking whether in fact officials briefed their ministers. That's a legitimate question that has nothing to do with what they said in a briefing. Now, if the officials didn't brief their ministers, then their ministers are right to say, “I didn't know.” But then it's a different issue.

So we're trying, as a committee, to determine whether the officials did their duty. That's all, and nothing else.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Okay, and we can continue to analyze that.

In the meantime, we'll move to Ms. Lalonde.

You have seven minutes.

[Francine Lalonde, Bloc, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

I'm going to share my time with Ms. Deschamps.

I listened to you, I would say, with a certain amount of disappointment. You aren't unaware that we are meeting today because there is a feeling of concern and anger among Canadians and Quebeckers over a number of cases that can be called consular cases or that can be given other names. This public feeling has very definitely been exacerbated by court judgments that have determined that the rights of citizens have been abused.

You are high-level administrators. Do you believe that rights—such as those conferred by the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms or by international treaties—should apply uniformally to all Canadian citizens, whatever their names may be? Do you believe that rights and freedoms are privileges that the government can distribute or that they are legal obligations?

I've come to the point where I've asked that question. I know it isn't easy for you to perform the duties of the job you hold, but you often hold in your hands the lives and futures of citizens who, in some instances, completely depend on you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Kevin Sorenson]

Mr. Edwards.

[Leonard Edwards]

Perhaps I can start. I'm sure that we at the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade honour the rights of Canadian citizens. That's a rule and a way of working. We are always very much aware of Canadians' rights. We enforce our rules and provide our consular services in an equal manner.

[Luc Portelance]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

As I mentioned earlier, we have a twofold mandate at the Canada Border Services Agency. First, we focus on facilitating the entry of people to the country, whether they be Canadian, immigrants or refugees. We also have an obligation to enforce certain laws, including the Immigration and Refugee Protection Act, the Customs Act and so on. At the senior management level, we definitely expect all our employees to abide by Canada's laws, and we accept nothing less.