Evidence of meeting #33 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-300.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stephen Lucas  Assistant Deputy Minister, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources
Rémy M. Beauregard  President, Rights & Democracy
William McGuinty  President, OTD Exploration Services Inc.
Tyler Giannini  Lecturer on Law, International Human Rights Clinic, Harvard Law School
Sarah Knuckey  Lawyer, Center for Human Rights and Global Justice, New York University School of Law
Carole Samdup  Senior Advisor, Economic and Social Rights, Rights & Democracy

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Good morning, colleagues. This is meeting number 33 of the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, on Tuesday, October 20, 2009.

Our orders of the day include a return to our committee's study of Bill C-300, An Act respecting Corporate Accountability for the Activities of Mining, Oil or Gas in Developing Countries. As witnesses in the first hour today, we are pleased to have, from the Department of Natural Resources, Stephen Lucas, assistant deputy minister, minerals and metals sector; and also Ginny Flood, director general of the minerals, metals and materials policy branch.

I invite you to make your opening testimony, and then we will proceed into rounds of questioning.

Madame Lalonde, you had asked for time in committee business at the end of the first hour, and we will definitely leave time for committee business. Did you want that for today and Thursday, or for Thursday?

9 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

There was a break week. I was hoping that it would be today but the clerk explained that we had a lot of work.

It would have to be Thursday, if possible at the beginning of the meeting, because we have several important motions and the moment when those motions are passed is also important.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

We will definitely leave time on Thursday, then, for committee business, if that is all right with everyone else. It looks so far like we have agreement on that, so that's what we'll do. We'll just put off committee business till Thursday.

So welcome here. From the Department of Natural Resources, Mr. Lucas, the floor is yours.

October 20th, 2009 / 9 a.m.

Dr. Stephen Lucas Assistant Deputy Minister, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Thank you, Mr. Chair. I have provided copies of my remarks in both official languages and I'll present a somewhat abridged version of them.

Thank you very much for the opportunity to speak to you today. My opening remarks will focus on Canada's mining sector and corporate social responsibility, given my responsibilities at Natural Resources Canada as assistant deputy minister, minerals and metals.

There are currently over a thousand Canadian mining companies and exploration companies working in over a hundred countries around the world on well over 5,000 projects. According to Statistics Canada, Canadian direct investment abroad in the mineral and metals sector from 1990 to 2008 was $66.7 billion. There are also another 2,400 Canadian technology consulting service and supply companies that work with the mining sector firms here in Canada and around the world.

As we know from our experience in Canada and from countries around the world, mineral exploration and development can create jobs and other local benefits, including training, business opportunities and infrastructure improvements, as well as contributions to social and economic advancement through local CSR programs.

or CSR in English.

Tax and royalty payments to government may also be generated. Furthermore, mining operations contribute to the local economy through the procurement of materials and a range of services.

The contributions to both local communities and developing countries that can result from mining activities are significant. Chile is a prime example. I certainly acknowledge that there are challenges, including those that stem from past industry practice, poor corporate performers, and a lack of governance capacity and rule of law in developing countries, whether it's at the national, regional, and/or local level. Lack of governance and institutional capacity in terms of legislative or regulatory frameworks and the capacity to implement and enforce these can result in government responsibilities being relinquished to mining companies at the local level.

Recognition of these challenges has led to a number of important initiatives over the past decade or more, including the IFC performance standards and Global Reporting Initiative, the Voluntary Principles on Security and Human Rights, the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative, the Kimberley Process Certification Scheme, and the UN Secretary General-mandated work of John Ruggie on human rights and the role of corporations, which is still under way.

Canada's mineral exploration and mining industries recognize that their ability to operate in Canada and abroad increasingly depends on the soundness of their environmental performance and social responsibility. Shareholders and investors are increasingly considering CSR performance in their valuation and investment decisions on Canadian mining firms.

Many companies and industry associations are being recognized for their work to improve performance in Canada and abroad. The Mining Association of Canada has developed a mandatory CSR program for its members called Towards Sustainable Mining, which was recently identified as “best in class” by Canadian Business for Social Responsibility.

The Prospectors and Developers Association of Canada developed a set of environmental guidelines, known as Environmental Excellence in Exploration, or e3, a number of years ago to support environmental performance improvement by the exploration industry. And last March PDAC released its e3Plus guidelines, which address CSR performance for mineral exploration firms.

The government not only encourages this approach to doing business, but sees an active role for itself in encouraging Canadian companies to develop and implement CSR practices that meet or beat international performance standards.

Natural Resources Canada has the mandate to promote and support the sustainable development of Canada's mineral, energy and forestry resources in order to contribute to the quality of life of Canadians.

We recognize that the standard for competitiveness today is not only measured by economic performance, but environmental and social responsibility performance as well.

In the area of corporate social responsibility, our activities are the following. We work closely with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade in their comprehensive initiative to improve the CSR knowledge and capacity of their missions.

The Government of Canada has joined both the Extractive Industries Transparency Initiative and the Voluntary Principles on Security and Human Rights. NRCan sits on the board of the EITI. Canada works with developing countries through the Intergovernmental Forum on Mining, Minerals, Metals and Sustainable Development. Established in 2005, it is a follow-up action led by Canada and South Africa to the 2002 World Summit on Sustainable Development.

The aim of the forum, which now includes over 43 countries, is to improve the contribution of mining to sustainable development through practical sharing of experiences and best practices. NRCan engages as well in regional multilateral government-to-government work to help build governance capacity for sustainable resource development. Canada, through NRCan, is the only non-African country to participate in the annual meetings of the African Mining Partnership and was instrumental in supporting a similar regional mechanism for the Americas.

We also implement programs through bilateral agreements with Chile and Brazil, as well as through bilateral cooperation with many developing countries, including Peru, Colombia, Ecuador, Mexico, Argentina, Panama, the Philippines, and many African countries. These countries are all seeking Canada's expertise related to building governance capacity to support the sustainable development of their mineral resources.

NRCan has also worked with industry, aboriginal organizations, and federal departments to develop an aboriginal tool kit for mining, which is increasingly being adopted and adapted by developing countries, including Peru, Mexico, the Philippines, Ecuador, and countries in west Africa.

In addition to National Resources Canada, a number of government departments and agencies already have in place a number of policies and guidelines to ensure that their clients are good corporate citizens.

Canada already expects that corporations working in Canada and Canadian cooperations working abroad adhere to the OECD guidelines for multinational enterprises that provide benchmarks for responsible business conduct.

DFAIT is home to Canada's national contact point, a senior-level official responsible for promoting awareness of the OECD guidelines and reviewing reports of specific instances of non-compliance with these guidelines. Export Development Canada also established a compliance officer in 2005 to enhance its transparency and accountability. In 2007, EDC also announced its support for Equator Principles, an international benchmark for assessing and managing social and environmental risk in project financing.

Finally, the Canadian Pension Plan Investment Board has a policy on responsible investing.

In addition to the measures noted above, the government has taken further substantive steps regarding the CSR performance of Canada's mining, oil and gas sectors operating abroad, including the National Roundtables on CSR.

On March 26, 2009, the government tabled its new CSR policy in Parliament entitled, Building the Canadian Advantage: A Corporate Social Responsibility (CSR) Strategy for the Canadian International Extractive Sector . The strategy is founded on four key pillars that together provide a multi-pronged, proactive, collaborative, policy-based approach.

The first pillar calls for continuing assistance from CIDA and NRCan for developing-country governments to enhance their capacity to manage natural resources in a sustainable and responsible manner. An example is the PERCAN project in Peru, now renewed to support capacity building in Peru's ministry of energy and mines.

The second pillar calls for the promotion of internationally recognized, voluntary CSR performance and reporting guidelines, including the International Finance Corporation's performance standards on social and environmental sustainability, the Voluntary Principles on Security and Human Rights, and the Global Reporting Initiative. This builds on Canada's adherence to the OECD guidelines for multinational enterprises.

The third pillar of the strategy involves support for the development of a new CSR centre of excellence. This is a one-stop shop, hosted by the Canadian Institute of Mining, Metallurgy and Petroleum, that will provide information to companies, non-governmental organizations, and other relevant stakeholders.

Finally, the fourth pillar of the strategy calls for the creation of a new office of the extractive sector CSR counsellor”. As you are aware, the government recently appointed Dr. Marketa Evans as the first CSR counsellor.

By defining expectations, encouraging transparency in reporting, partnering on capacity building in developing countries and industry, and implementing a dispute resolution mechanism, the strategy will increase the ability of Canadian firms to manage social and environmental risks and encourage them to improve their performance in an ongoing manner. This will not only improve their CSR practices and sustainable development outcomes for developing countries; it also contributes to the competitiveness of Canadian industry working abroad.

In summary, improving the CSR performance of the Canadian extractive industry working abroad is a fundamentally important objective for the Government of Canada as well as for industry. In addition, the government recognizes the key objective of working collaboratively with host countries to improve their governance capacity for the sustainable development of their mineral and energy resources.

To address these objectives, the government, industry, and other stakeholders in Canada and internationally have implemented a number of specific initiatives over the past decade or longer. Complementing these efforts, and responding substantially to the report of the advisory group for the national round tables, the government is implementing a multi-pronged, proactive, collaborative strategy aimed at the continuous improvement of industry CSR performance and the strengthening of governance capacity through partnership in developing countries.

I thank you once again for having heard me here. It will be a pleasure to answer your questions.

9:10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Lucas.

We'll move into the first round of questioning, with Mr. Rae for seven minutes.

9:10 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Mr. Lucas, thank you very much for your presentation.

With respect to Bill C-300, is it not possible to see that Bill C-300 could work in a very collaborative way—with some modest changes—with the government's current approach? In other words, we recognize what the government is doing and we see the progress that's been made, but would it not be possible to see Bill C-300 as working in parallel with what else is happening on the administrative level?

As an example, the development of the standards that is taking place at the international level would clearly give the government guidance with respect to the standards and guidelines that the legislation anticipates would be brought forward. In fact, there would be nothing dramatically different in what the guidelines are; it would simply be that if somebody has a complaint, there's a process by which the minister can then determine whether the complaint is frivolous or not.

It shouldn't be seen that Bill C-300 is in some sense antagonistic to the approach that's already being identified by the government. Or am I seeing the world through rose-coloured glasses, as my friends opposite might sometimes want to accuse me of doing?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Rae.

Mr. Lucas.

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Stephen Lucas

Mr. Chair, in starting my response, I'd like to reiterate the fundamental objectives of the government in terms of implementing a multi-pronged strategy to improve the CSR performance of the Canadian extractive industry and as well to contribute to governance and institutional capacity building in host countries through collaborative government-to-government work. This multi-pronged strategy, building on the existing measures in place, including the OECD guidelines and national contact point, includes a number of mechanisms that, working together, provide a fulsome way forward on this. This includes a dispute resolution mechanism through the office of the CSR counsellor.

Implementing an additional and potentially complex and costly measure that is a legislative approach, when we have existing measures in place that are based on a policy framework with the objectives I've outlined, could contribute to confusion. There will be challenges in terms of how that would operate with other existing mechanisms, as I've outlined. There are already in place measures in, for example, Export Development Canada to ensure that companies it engages with in its business respond substantively to the guidance of the Equator Principles.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

I'm not sure you really answered his question. His question was specific to this bill and I think was driving at whether there is a way, through certain amendments or modifications, as Mr. Rae said, that we can still work with Bill C-300.

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Stephen Lucas

As I've outlined, the government believes that through the CSR strategy it announced last spring, coupled with the measures in place and the commitment of industry and other stakeholders to work forward on this, there is a substantive mechanism in place that both proactively promotes good practice as a mechanism to resolve disputes and addresses one of the critical root issues, which is the lack of governance capacity in many developing countries for the sustainable development of their resources. As the strategy is committed to a five-year review and there will be an evidentiary base collected, not just through the OECD national contact point but through the work of the office of the CSR extractive counsellor, which will be transparent both in specific instances and in their annual report to Parliament, I believe it will give foundation for a fulsome response now and that with the review we'll have an opportunity in four and a half years' time to assess whether it is both necessary and sufficient to achieve the objectives I've outlined for the strategy.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Okay.

Mr. Patry.

9:15 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Mr. Lucas and Ms. Flood.

Last October 2, the Minister of International Trade announced the appointment of Ms. Evans to the new position of corporate social responsibility advisor. In other countries that also do business in the mining, oil and gas sectors, for instance the United States, the United Kingdom, Germany, France and Brazil, is there a complaint and investigation system such as the one that has just been proposed by the government, and related sanctions as proposed by Bill C-300?

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Patry.

9:15 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Stephen Lucas

The Canadian CSR strategy that the government announced in the spring is unique in the world. Other countries as well as Canada have the national contact point as part of their implementation of the OECD guidelines for multinational enterprises. We've gone a significant step further in implementing the strategy, and in my discussions with both developed and developing countries around the world, they are highly complimentary to the approach the government has taken in this regard.

9:15 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

You have some more time. You have another minute.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Mr. Lucas, in my opinion, Ms. Evans has no power. And what the government has proposed is an empty shell.

According to your experience, would Canadian mining and gas companies that do business abroad leave Canada because of a bill such as Bill C-300? That is my first question.

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Stephen Lucas

I'd first like to respond to your initial statement regarding the role and responsibilities of the CSR counsellor. It is very important to look at it in the context of existing measures, such as a national contact point, the adoption by EDC of the Equator Principles, and its compliance offer. It's another mechanism in place to support dispute resolution and it will work both proactively to increase awareness supporting the government's objective to see ongoing improvement for CSR performance and respond transparently to issues brought to it in regard to CSR concerns. It is one of a number of mechanisms. It does have clear responsibilities, and associated with the office is a commitment to transparent reporting on how issues brought to a CSR counsellor are addressed.

In regard to your second question on whether companies would leave, there are a couple of fundamental considerations here. First, investment capital is highly mobile. We believe that, in general, Canadian industries are committed to improving their performance, and their boards and shareholders are consistent with that; and that, in addition, adds further impetus to the overall thrust of the CSR strategy, that transparency and commitment.

In terms of whether companies would decide to leave, it's difficult for me to comment on that directly, but there is a potential challenge of an unlevel playing field with respect to other competitor nations.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Mr. Patry, very quickly.

9:20 a.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

I have just a comment. I totally agree with you in the sense that if we're back with Bill C-300, this is because of the fact that the government didn't go ahead with the round tables, and in putting the round tables there was the creation of an ombudsman with some teeth. There are no teeth at all in what Madam Evans will do, and I don't think it is good for Canada.

That is my comment. I would agree with you.

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Patry.

Ms. Deschamps, you have seven minutes.

9:20 a.m.

Bloc

Johanne Deschamps Bloc Laurentides—Labelle, QC

With your permission, I will be sharing my time with Ms. Lalonde

Good morning. A broad consultation was conducted over two years and a report was prepared. People were consulted from all walks of life—civil society, the mining industry and experts. The report recommends above all that non-compliers no longer be entitled to tax advantages, to loan guarantees or to other forms of government assistance.

On the matter of the government's accountability strategy, can you give us some examples of non-compliant companies? What is the government, or are the EDC people doing when they learn that a company is breaching the Act respecting Corporate Accountability for the Activities of Mining, Oil or Gas in Developing Countries where they are operating? For instance, in Peru, in 2004, some 40 cases of non-compliant companies were reported.

What is the reaction of Canadian government representatives in the face of these businesses that commit violations of human rights or environmental offences, for instance?

9:20 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, madame.

Mr. Lucas.

9:20 a.m.

Assistant Deputy Minister, Minerals and Metals Sector, Department of Natural Resources

Dr. Stephen Lucas

Mr. Chair, in response to the question, in the first instance I just want to reiterate the point I made that the government's CSR strategy responds substantially to the recommendations of the round table report and builds on measures in place, including the adoption by EDC of the Equator Principles, which guide its business. As well, EDC has a CSR advisory group and a compliance officer, so a number of mechanisms are in place and then are augmented by the strategy, which responds to the plurality of the round table recommendations.

In regard to specific situations in other countries, in the first instance, should a company violate the laws of another land, the expectation would be that the country, through its mechanisms, would address that. In terms of the work of the mission, it would be to find out the nature of the situation and specifically work towards a resolution with the government of the country in question, the company, and others.

The existing national contact point, now coupled with the CSR counsellor, provides an opportunity to do fact-finding and transparent reporting on the nature of the situation and move it towards mediation and mechanisms that can provide a resolution.

9:25 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Madam Lalonde.

9:25 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

If there is no agreement after the mediation, are you ready to impose the penalties? We would like the companies to understand that they can be more productive by respecting their employees' working conditions and lives. I saw such businesses in Africa.

However it is also possible that entrepreneurs do not understand that, or do not really seek ways of achieving it. In those conditions, should there not be adequate penalties in the law?