Evidence of meeting #34 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was companies.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Karyn Keenan  Program Officer, Halifax Initiative Coalition
Christopher MacLennan  Director General, Thematic and Sectoral Policy Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency
Hélène Giroux  Director General, South America, Americas, Geographic Programs Branch, Canadian International Development Agency
Bill Singleton  Senior Economic Policy Advisor, Strategic Policy and Performance Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

9:53 a.m.

Christopher MacLennan Director General, Thematic and Sectoral Policy Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman.

I am pleased to have the opportunity to describe to the standing committee CIDA's role in the Government of Canada's CSR strategy, to provide some background information on the importance of the extractive sector to developing countries, and to give you an idea of the type of programming that CIDA has been doing and is planning to do.

As you've mentioned, my name is Chris MacLennan; I'm director general of thematic and sectoral policy. With me is Madame Hélène Giroux, who is the director general for South America; and Bill Singleton, who is CIDA's internal focal point on CSR. As members of the committee may recall, the government's CSR strategy required CIDA to create an internal focal point on extractive sector development issues, and Bill is currently serving in that capacity on an interim basis.

Before describing CIDA's role in the government's CSR strategy, I wish to draw the attention of the committee to one item in Bill C-300. In the interpretation section of the bill, subclause 2(1), there is reference to “the list of countries and territories eligible for Canadian development assistance established by the Minister of International Cooperation.” Such a list no longer exists. CIDA publishes in its annual report to Parliament the list of countries in which CIDA has actually made disbursements, but this is not the same as a list of countries that are actually eligible for development assistance.

That said, of course, the government, in February 2009, announced that as part of its aid effectiveness agenda, CIDA would concentrate 80% of its bilateral programming spending in 20 countries of focus. That is also not a list of eligible countries but simply where CIDA will be concentrating its efforts under the aid effectiveness agenda.

With this exception, Bill C-300 makes no direct reference to CIDA or its activities. However, because Bill C-300 is addressing issues in the same area as the government's CSR strategy for the Canadian international extractive sector, I would like to describe to the committee what CIDA is doing in relation to the extractive sector in developing countries.

As members of the committee will recall, the government's CSR strategy has four elements. One of these is entitled “Host Country Capacity-Building”, and it is this part of the strategy with which CIDA is directly concerned.

A large number of studies have been carried out about why mineral and hydrocarbon resources are all too often more of a problem than an opportunity for many developing countries. This is in contrast to the economic history of countries such as Canada, the United States, and Australia, which have been able to make productive use of natural resources as a source of economic growth, employment, and export earnings.

The common conclusion at which the various studies have arrived is that the most important single factor is the transparency and effectiveness of host countries' resource governance and management regimes. This includes the establishment of stable legal and fiscal regulatory frameworks to ensure sustainable resource management and development, and regulatory institutions and agencies responsible for regulating and overseeing sector activities.

In the absence of strong institutions, natural resources such as minerals, oil, and gas can become what, of course, is known in development as the “resource curse”. The curse can lead to a number of problems, including corruption, conflict, social unrest, and negative economic and environmental impacts. The revenues from the resources are volatile, which makes it difficult for governments to manage their spending. Finally, in some countries, revenues from minerals, oil, and gas have been used as a means of financing conflict, as many of you are aware.

The nature of the choices that developing countries must make are well known to Canadians: whether to extract the resources at all; how quickly to extract; whether to use national companies or rely on the international private sector; how to design the laws, regulations, and contracts that can produce the greatest benefits to the country and its citizens; and how to avoid or mitigate the environmental or social costs of extraction. Developing countries must also decide on policies and mechanisms for dialogue and stakeholder participation in extractive sector development. Each choice will have far-reaching consequences that can shape a country's development path.

CIDA's recent programming in individual countries in the extractive sector has been primarily in the Americas. In line with the principles of aid effectiveness, the orientation of this programming has been to support countries that have themselves set extractive sector resource management as a priority for their development planning.

In Peru, for example, CIDA has worked extensively with the national and regional governments and affected communities to develop and promote regulatory requirements for social and environmental management in the extractive sector. CIDA's support has included the provision of tools and expertise in the mining and hydrocarbon sectors and support for social, environmental, and multi-stakeholder dialogue, community participation, and conflict resolution.

CIDA has assisted Bolivia in establishing a tax collection unit. As a result, from 2004 to 2008, Bolivia realized a fourfold increase in revenue, amounting to well over $2 billion annually. Most of this money has been reinvested in public services and social supports.

In addition, CIDA is developing an Andean regional initiative, which will strengthen regional and local governments as well as community capacity to plan, develop, and implement sustainable development projects. The initiative will increase the well-being of the communities and enhance their capacity for engagement with extractive-sector firms.

At the multilateral level, CIDA is working on the extractive industries transparency initiative, or the EITI, in partnership with the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and with Natural Resources Canada. The objective of the initiative is to introduce greater transparency into financial flows precipitated by natural resources in developing countries, with the objective of reducing corruption. CIDA has provided some of the funding for Canada's participation in the EITI multi-donor trust fund managed by the World Bank.

In addition, as laid out in the government's CSR strategy, CIDA is in the process of identifying an individual who will work with the World Bank on implementation of EITI in a number of countries in Africa.

For the future, CIDA's assistance to developing countries in their natural resource management will be carried out under the thematic priority of sustainable economic growth, which is one of the priorities set for the Government of Canada's international assistance envelope.

I've already described how natural resources can be a source of economic growth. Good resource management, especially in relation to environmental and social impacts, can help make growth sustainable.

We have made contact with our counterpart development agencies in other countries, such as Norway and the United Kingdom, to identify ways in which we might collaborate more effectively. In July, CIDA hosted round tables on CSR with the private sector and with civil society, and we are continuing that dialogue. We are working closely with DFAIT and NRCan on implementation of the other three elements in the government's CSR strategy.

I hope this brief description of CIDA's approach to the extractive sector in developing countries will assist the committee in its consideration of Bill C-300. Hélène, Bill, and I are open to questions you might have about CIDA's experience and how our work is contributing to the achievement of the government's objectives.

Thank you.

10 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. MacLennan.

Mr. Rae.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Thank you, Mr. MacLennan.

I understand the work you're doing. I've seen evidence of it in my other, previous life, and even currently, with respect to the Andean countries. Would you agree that there's nothing incompatible between Bill C-300 and the ongoing work that you're doing? Bill C-300 doesn't take away from that work. In fact, it builds on it. The infrastructure that you're creating, as well as the knowledge about how the mining industry is working in Latin America and Africa, would be entirely relevant to a minister who receives a complaint and exercises his discretion under Bill C-300. Wouldn't you agree?

10 a.m.

Director General, Thematic and Sectoral Policy Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency

Christopher MacLennan

The bill does not actually touch upon the work of CIDA in developing countries. So from that perspective, the operation of the bill, to my understanding, would not have an effect on what CIDA is doing in-country.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

No, but let's look at the proverbial whole of government, if I can just try to break down the silos. A minister who's getting a complaint is going to want to draw information from the whole of the Canadian government on the activity in question. You have information from Peru, Colombia, or wherever, that names a company and describes what they're doing. My sense is that the Canadian embassies in these countries are very knowledgeable about what these companies are engaging in, and their local representatives are in touch with the embassy all the time. So how would Bill C-300 be incompatible with the work that you're doing?

I have no objection to the work you're doing. I think it's important. But I don't quite understand how Bill C-300 would be seen as incompatible with it. I think Mr. McKay put it well this morning when he said that you have to look at Bill C-300 as being simply the last two steps of the round table that the government decided not to implement. We could probably solve most of our problems if we gave the counsellor a couple of powers she doesn't now have. I think this would resolve any conflict, perceived or real, between what Mr. McKay is proposing and what the government has already outlined.

10 a.m.

Director General, Thematic and Sectoral Policy Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency

Christopher MacLennan

As I stated, and as you actually noted in your testimony, Bill C-300 doesn't directly bear upon the activities of the Canadian International Development Agency in terms of what we're actually doing in-country. So in terms of how well the bill will function, it actually affects the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade more, and as a result, I would think that question is probably more appropriately posed to the Department of Foreign Affairs.

So it won't affect CIDA's role under the CSR strategy.

10 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

But what CIDA does is part of the broader political direction of the government with respect to development in Latin America. It's part of our foreign policy. It's not a separate entity unto itself. CIDA is part of the overall Canadian enterprise that we're looking at.

I'm just saying that if Bill C-300 says the minister gets a complaint and then considers the activities, surely the evidence.... What CIDA is doing and the evidence of what CIDA has with respect to a particular company would be entirely relevant to the Minister of Foreign Affairs. I would argue that it would be ludicrous to suggest that CIDA isn't going to be part of this puzzle. Of course it's going to be part of the puzzle. The counsellor who has been appointed for CSR is going to want to talk to you guys about what you're doing and what you're finding on the ground. Madame Giroux will have her staff in Latin America and they'll be reporting to her, as well as to the ambassador who is on site. Isn't that the case?

10:05 a.m.

Director General, Thematic and Sectoral Policy Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency

Christopher MacLennan

To return to your point, actually, and as I mentioned in my point, I agree with you that the contents of this bill will not affect CIDA's activities on the ground--

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Negatively?

10:05 a.m.

Director General, Thematic and Sectoral Policy Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency

Christopher MacLennan

Personally I don't have a firm opinion. We haven't formed a firm opinion on the bill itself because it actually is under the purview of other departments. In terms of its bearing upon CIDA, our activities would continue in these countries in the way they previously have.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Perhaps Madame Giroux, I could try with you.

There are representatives from CIDA on site. They are currently discussing the situation in Colombia, Peru, etc. You must get reports on the current activities of Canadian companies.

October 22nd, 2009 / 10:05 a.m.

Hélène Giroux Director General, South America, Americas, Geographic Programs Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

We get indirect reports through the governments of the host countries with which we work.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

I find it impossible to believe that you don't hear about the activities of Canadian companies in Colombia or Peru. The local newspapers talk about the activities of Canadian companies. It exists; you get reports.

10:05 a.m.

Director General, South America, Americas, Geographic Programs Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

Hélène Giroux

From our embassies, yes.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

From your embassies and the people who work for CIDA and the embassy, correct?

10:05 a.m.

Director General, South America, Americas, Geographic Programs Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

Hélène Giroux

As a rule, yes. Normally it's through our political sector, as part of a government-wide approach, as you said. We get reports from our embassies on these matters.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

What happens when you get complaints from people in the field?

You have a social responsibility program, and an advisor was recently appointed. What do you do with the information you receive?

10:05 a.m.

Director General, South America, Americas, Geographic Programs Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

Hélène Giroux

Your question concerns the corporate component. I hope my answer will be satisfactory, and I will be asking my colleague to help me.

From the standpoint of the Americas Section, the Andean initiative or the Andes Region initiative to promote effective corporate social responsibility is in the planning stage and is not yet up and running. We are working directly with the host governments, and if they have complaints, they bring them directly to our embassy.

However, it is not part of CIDA's mandate to handle complaints from host governments regarding Canadian companies in the field that may not be meeting national or international requirements.

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Your time is pretty well up on that round.

10:05 a.m.

Liberal

Bob Rae Liberal Toronto Centre, ON

Yes, I feel that way too.

10:05 a.m.

Voices

Oh, oh!

10:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Madame Lalonde.

10:05 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

Could you please say that again? It's not CIDA's mandate...

10:05 a.m.

Director General, South America, Americas, Geographic Programs Branch, Canadian International Development Agency

Hélène Giroux

CIDA's mandate is to reduce poverty in order to promote sustainable development. Through our feld projects— in Bolivia and Peru, it's mostly in the mining and oil and gas sectors —, we work directly with the governments of the host governments, for example with the ministry of energy and mines in Peru and Bolivia, to increase the ability of those governments to ensure that companies from Canada and elsewhere that are working in their country act take responsibility.

We strengthen their ability to put in place, for example, transparent legislative and regulatory frameworks in order to establish mechanisms for dialogue between governments, companies and communites and to create tax systems that make it possible to collect revenue from those companies for social programs. That is our mandate.

10:10 a.m.

Bloc

Francine Lalonde Bloc La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC

So you help the countries rather than ensure that the companies themselves act as good citizens. Is that right?