Foreign Affairs Committee on Oct. 27th, 2009

[Jim McArdle]

Yes. There is also a clause where the minister has to publicize why he thinks they are vexatious.

We are also concerned that because the standards aren't formalized and they aren't clear enough yet, it would be very difficult for the minister, in a very quick fashion, to say this one is frivolous and vexatious and blow it away. The minister would have to actually think about it for a while, and during that period the reputation of the Canadian company is being damaged and they would probably have to hold off on the deal.

[Jim McArdle]

It's a theory, but I think we can analogize to the environmental side that as the IFC performance standards were being developed several years ago, there were situations where companies were being accused of environmental harm and activities--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Right, and I hope we can learn from that.

[Jim McArdle]

It turned out they weren't, in many cases, so their reputations were being harmed because the standards were being developed and they couldn't defend themselves.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

But I'd go back to the point that we have a year to establish criteria for the bill and that process. I've heard this a couple of times at the committee, and for those who are listening and thinking this bill will be horrible because any time someone put forward a complaint it would be considered fact, that's not the case, is it?

[Jim McArdle]

I think at the beginning it would have to be treated as factual, bona fide.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Why? It's not in the bill. It says there's a vexatious, frivolous component to it.

[Jim McArdle]

You can only make that decision after you've had a look at the underlying situation. You can't make a decision on the very face of it.

If I were an auditor, if I were looking at it as an investigator or as a lawyer, I could not simply say I didn't think this was a problem, I'd have to look at it some before I could make that decision. The bill requires the minister to justify why they think it's frivolous, so they're going to have to do some.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

When they receive it, it's not. The way the bill is constructed, if a minister receives a complaint, it's not automatically public, it's not automatically taken as fact.

[Jim McArdle]

I think it's going to be made public by the complainant instantly.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That happens all the time anyway.

[Jim McArdle]

If I were the complainant, that's what I would do. I would say I'd sent a letter to the minister and I've complained.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's right, yes, so what? It happens all the time. It happens now.

[Jim McArdle]

The reputation timeline starts right away, and we think the company will not be able to deal with it.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Not in this bill. Maybe we disagree on that, because once you send a letter, that doesn't mean it's fact; that means you've sent a letter of complaint. Would you agree?

[Jim McArdle]

I would agree. Then I think the minister has to work with that.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I agree with that.

[Jim McArdle]

In the meantime, the public knows that a complaint has been made, and the complainant will be arguing that it is fact.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That happens today, though.

[Jim McArdle]

We've seen a lot of facts held out today that, if you really investigate them, are either very minor or a situation where EDC's not involved. We don't support the companies that are being talked about here, so it's frustrating for us to hear all this discussion about how these companies are doing bad things. Some are, I have to admit that, but we don't support them and we would never support them.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Your name was never brought up this morning in terms of those companies' behaviour.

[Jim McArdle]

So that's why we believe EDC should not be mentioned, should not be referenced in this bill. We think the intent of this bill can be dealt with in a different way without impacting how EDC can help Canadian companies develop their CSR capacity.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Just to be clear, there was no mention of EDC this morning in the interventions from the witnesses, I believe.

[Jim McArdle]

There were no specific mentions.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I think we need to be factual about that, because it's their reputation as well.

Thank you.