Evidence of meeting #8 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was mexico.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Stephen Clarkson  Professor, Political Science, University of Toronto
Carl Grenier  Associate Professor, Department of Political Science, Laval University, As an Individual
Donald McRae  Hyman Soloway Professor of Business and Trade law, University of Ottawa
Hon. Joe Clark  Former Prime Minister, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians
André J. LeBlanc  Managing Director, State of South Carolina - Canada Office

4:25 p.m.

Professor, Political Science, University of Toronto

Prof. Stephen Clarkson

One of the positive outcomes of the SPP is the annual summit of the three heads of government. That was agreed to in Cancun in March of 2006. Unlike in 2001, when the United States blocked its border and in effect violated NAFTA when there was no summit at all of the three heads of government, now the President of Mexico and the Prime Minister of Canada get face time, at the same table, with the U.S. President. That's very valuable for our two governments.

It shows, by the way, my thesis that we get access to Washington by participating with Mexico. I'd really advise the committee to hang on to that and recommend that this institution be continued.

4:25 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much. We want to thank all of you, not only for your presentations but also for the input during questions. We look forward to hearing from you again.

We will suspend for a moment while we change witnesses.

4:30 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Appearing before us in our second hour today we have, from the Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians, the former Prime Minister of Canada, the former Minister of Foreign Affairs, the Right Honourable Joe Clark.

Welcome. It's always a pleasure to have you.

We also have André LeBlanc, managing director of the Canada Office, State of South Carolina.

A number of people have talked about the unfortunate fact that sometimes we have three witnesses and at other times we can't have some appear alone. We try to have these dates available and put in what we can. I can tell you both that we have very much looked forward to your being here. We thank you for adjusting, in some cases, your schedules so that you could do this. As a committee we appreciate and look forward to your input.

We'll begin with the Right Honourable Mr. Clark.

March 9th, 2009 / 4:30 p.m.

Joe Clark Former Prime Minister, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians

Thank you very much, Kevin.

It is a pleasure to appear before this parliamentary committee. I feel somewhat at home here.

I believe this is the right time to review the important and broad role that Canada plays internationally.

I would like to make nine brief observations. I will also be circulating some charts, but I hope they will not be distributed to the audience in such a way as to detract from the very serious nature of my remarks. They will, however, need to be circulated.

Firstly, Canada enjoys a very solid reputation among the world’s nations. Our reputation is a national asset comparable to our wealth of resources and it can be put to use to our mutual advantage.

Secondly, in a world marked by religious and economic differences, the most valuable skills today and for the foreseeable future are the ones that make it possible to transcend these differences, to forge alliances and to find common ground, to manage diversity and to spur confidence. These are traditional qualities that Canada has displayed in a tangible way on the world stage.

Third, using that asset is in our own national interest. One of the charts that is being circulated, or will be, reports a projection by Goldman Sachs—not economic advice, but projections of the future—which projects the changes in world economic standing of various countries by the year 2050. Canada then will be a respectable economy. We'll be a little smaller than Vietnam and a little larger than the Philippines.

In those circumstances, how long could Canada keep a place at the table of a G-8 summit? Would we even make the cut of a G-20 summit? Would we, in other words, keep our seat in the inner circle of countries that define international trade and military and diplomatic policy? Not if we focus narrowly on trade and economic policy or define our international profile by military presence alone. But the odds are that we could remain an influential country were we to renew our trusted activist, diplomatic, and development credentials.

Fourth, when Canada has been most effective internationally—and I say this as someone who served as Secretary of State during a period when we simultaneously said no to President Reagan on the strategic defence initiative and persuaded the Americans to enter into a free trade agreement and an acid rain treaty—it has been because we pursued two priorities at the same time. We worked hard on our friendship with the United States and we worked hard on an independent and innovative role in the wider world. Those, sir, are not opposite positions. They are the two sides of the Canadian coin.

Our access to Washington adds real clout to the standing we earn by our actions in other countries, because we are thought to be able to influence our powerful neighbour.

In the same line of thinking, our sound reputation in developing countries and our active role in the multilateral community are not negligible assets for Canada. The United States cannot say as much.

In the past 60 years at least, Canada has established partnerships and earned the trust and respect of regions where the United States sometimes creates envy or fear. This capability of Canada's is definitely understood by President Obama's administration.

Fifth, power in the world is changing. The new world that is taking shape holds out a twofold advantage for Canada. We are an industrialized and innovative economy and society. We are an independent and respected country, often a bridge between the industrialized and developing countries.

As Fareed Zakaria is careful to note in his book The Post-American World, this shift in power is not about anybody's decline. It is rather about the rise and assertion of new forces. We have more capacity in Canada than most of the developed world to build and enlarge relations with the cultures and societies whose influence in this world is growing. So many of those cultures are dynamic parts of our own Canadian identity, and our past actions have earned the respect of the developing world.

Sixth, Canada can have relatively more influence in politics and diplomacy than we do in trade and economics. Economic power reflects size. Diplomacy depends more on imagination, agility, and reputation. Canada's political and diplomatic strengths have more currency, again, if we choose to use them. Yet we are eroding those strengths when we should be building them up.

Seventh—and again, one of the charts circulated relates to these figures—there are three departments in the Government of Canada with explicit international vocations. They are ranked here according to the government's published spending reports for the year 2008-09. They are National Defence, which accounts for 8.29% of federal program spending; CIDA, which accounts for 1.39%; and Foreign Affairs and International Trade, which currently accounts for 1.0% of federal program spending. Compared with 2007-08, the Department of National Defence budget increased by close to 8.4%. CIDA's increased by 0.68%. The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade dropped by 17.96%. DFAIT estimates that this decline will continue for at least the next two years and that by 2010-11, its budget will decrease by another 13.38%. In real terms, that would mean a loss of $700 million in just over three years from a budget that is now approximately $2.4 billion.

Eighth, to the Harper government's credit, Canada has now increased its defence spending to repair the damage that was done when we let other countries carry an increasing share of our defence burden. Yet our diplomatic resources and our development capacity are being run down now as steadily and as certainly as our defence resources were run down before. So why the double standard? Why are we more prepared to accept our share of the military burden than of the diplomatic and the development burden?

There are a number of issues I would like to address, but perhaps we will deal with those during the questions.

Finally, I just want to make a point about what modern foreign ministries can do, because I am more aware than others, perhaps, of the differences between the period when it was my privilege to serve as Minister of Foreign Affairs and today. The world has changed profoundly, and it has had an impact upon what countries can do. But one dramatic change in the world has been the increased role and authority of NGOs and activists, individuals and organizations who range from the International Crisis Group, which gives perhaps the best briefings one can find on international affairs, to the Gates foundation, to the environmental movement.

Very often these new actors are more nimble and less constrained than governments, or large institutions like the UN, but while they complement the work of governments and international institutions—and this is a point I want to insist on—they don't replace them. This is still an institutional world. Sovereign states still make the critical decisions to cut or to increase budgets, to respect or to break treaties, to send or to withdraw troops, to pay or withhold their membership contributions, to confront or ignore crises.

So the challenge now, and the opportunity now for a country like Canada, is to marry mandate with imagination, combine the creativity of these independent forces with the capacity of institutions to act. In Canadian experience, that is what happened in the fight against apartheid, in the signing of the land mines treaty, in the Kimberley Process to stop the trade in blood diamonds, and in a wide range of less-publicized initiatives.

We could make that a Canadian practice if we gave priority again to development and diplomacy.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

4:40 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. Clark.

We'll move to Monsieur LeBlanc.

4:40 p.m.

André J. LeBlanc Managing Director, State of South Carolina - Canada Office

Thank you.

Let me begin by thanking the committee for the privilege of speaking with you this afternoon. I would add that to do so in the company of Mr. Clark is a privilege indeed.

South Carolina has long maintained significant economic and cultural ties with Canada. In 2007, we received more than 850,000 Canadian visitors. Most of them, approximately 80%, spent their vacations on our beaches. Others came on business visits.

According to Canada's embassy in Washington, trade between South Carolina and Canada supports approximately 85,000 jobs in our state. Although it is hard for us to reconcile that level of employment, I can assure you that we are grateful for it and that relations between Canada and our state are of prime importance.

I should emphasize that I represent the State of South Carolina, not a country. We're a trade and investment office, so what I can perhaps offer to benefit your deliberations is our insight into how we develop these trade relationships and economic development opportunities or investment.

We are a very small state of roughly four million people. Our land mass is slightly larger than New Brunswick. It might be equal if the tide's out in the Bay of Fundy, but other than that we're about the same size. Our economy is historically based on agriculture and textiles. For those of you who know about this, we have essentially redeveloped ourselves in the past two decades. We're now very much focused, with a very successful effort, on economic development and growing our manufacturing, logistics, distribution, and tourism sectors. But the economic downturn is certainly having a major impact on us. We are a manufacturing state, but we're also a very fiscally conservative state. For that reason we feel we'll certainly be on the early end of the turnaround.

I appreciate that time is limited, so rather than rhyming off a bunch of trade statistics I'm sure you're all aware of, let me conclude by saying that whether as a tourist destination or a business-friendly place for Canadian industry to access and grow their U.S. markets, we have a long and valued history of welcoming Canadians, and we certainly appreciate the importance of building on this very important relationship.

Thank you.

Once again, thank you for inviting me today.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

We'll move into the first round.

Mr. Pearson.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

Thank you Mr. Chair.

Thank you both for coming. It's an honour.

Mr. Clark--fascinating. I travel a fair bit across the country speaking at universities. What I'm sensing within the country is a very strong desire that Canada's image in the world be enhanced. This is happening at the same time you're talking about how we've been losing our way somewhat in the last while.

My question to you is a brief one, but it's a bit complicated. I know the world is also changing and the world order is changing. If Canada were to start investing again in a foreign diplomatic service through CIDA development and other things, we don't just want to throw money at it. How could we best apply our resources, if we were to increase them, that would take advantage of the Canadian desire that we be out there? I don't even think they're looking to government any more to do it; they're finding their own auspices to do it.

As a result of this changing order in the world, Canada may be losing significance because others are growing. How can we best leverage those resources if we want to be a presence in the world again, diplomatically and in development?

4:45 p.m.

Former Prime Minister, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians

Joe Clark

Thank you.

I think a risk is that young people are not looking to governments. And I quite understand and encourage their interest in NGOs and the things they can do personally. It's much larger than it was in earlier generations. That's why I insist on the point that the decisions that are made in a world of institutions are made by governments. So we have to find some way to marry those.

One of my sad observations about Canada is that if you ever ran a referendum on foreign policy--I don't recommend referenda, but if you did--you would not get strong support for international initiatives. Our stellar record internationally has always been led by leaders. It's been multi-partisan in this country, and there is a strong grassroots interest in these matters, but it is not something that rises from the grassroots. It has to be led.

The third point I'd make is that the old models of how CIDA worked and of how External Affairs worked when I was the minister have been changed. One of the things that is necessary is to engender confidence in our public servants and others, the people who work with those departments, to look creatively at the changes.

What worries me most now, when I talk to people who serve both in our diplomatic and in our development agencies, is how down they are, how unwilling they are to speak with confidence about missions that not very long ago used to fill them with a sense of confidence. That is an institutional problem, which I believe is within the capacity of this committee to help address.

There needs to be, first of all, a recognition that there is a wide world in which individuals can make a difference. But the final differences require shoring up of our institutions. Those institutions have to take a look at themselves in modern and contemporary terms. Some of the best architects of change will be people who had been working in those institutions but who are now ground down by the sense that their contribution is not respected. They and others, I think, could make a substantial contribution to change.

The other thing is that, whether we deserve it or not, our reputation is still very high in the world. It won't stay that way forever, but it is still very high in the world, including, I believe, with the new Obama administration. There is a recognition that there are things we can do in the hemisphere and in the world that the United States can't do. I don't want to comment on recent performances. I simply want to make the case that this reputation remains strong and is an asset in Canada's hands.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Glen Pearson Liberal London North Centre, ON

I'll leave time for others.

4:45 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Monsieur Patry.

4:45 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you very much, Mr. LeBlanc and Mr. Clark.

Mr. Clark, you mentioned

the role of NGOs and the activists in the world right now. How can we match the Department of Foreign Affairs in these roles? It seems that NGOs right now have more power in a sense than does DFAIT. As you mentioned, right now the number of people leaving DFAIT is high. The number of young people leaving DFAIT is also very high, and we don't have any relève. We don't have anybody to replace them. They don't feel they have anything to do over there, because the solutions are not found through the department; they're found somewhere else.

4:50 p.m.

Former Prime Minister, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians

Joe Clark

I have two comments on that. One, people are leaving not because there aren't things to do but because their budgets are going down. People don't stay in organizations the masters of which don't evidence much interest in them. And unfortunately that is the case here. I believe that if there is more attention and a greater role given to Foreign Affairs and to CIDA, that will change.

I have a personal view. I don't understand--and I haven't understood for a long time--why Finance continues to function as a central agency, in effect, and Foreign Affairs has been downgraded to the position it has, when we live in an international era. So many of our decisions, so much more than ever before in our history, are affected by international factors.

We've recognized that on the economic side. We have one powerful department that coordinates activities on those fronts. We don't have that at all. We've dispersed dangerously, in terms of our international presence in the world. I understand the multitude of reasons for that. Individual departments want to represent themselves internationally. But I think it is a major mistake, and it leads to a sense of despair among professionals.

As to competing with them, don't compete with them; cooperate with them. You will rarely hear me praise Lloyd Axworthy, but Lloyd Axworthy made a significant contribution in the land mines treaty. Here was a movement generated by NGOs--governments wouldn't do it--but it couldn't come to anything decisive without a government stepping in. And it's not the only time that has happened. Norway is doing that regularly. Other countries are doing that regularly. Canada used to do it regularly and can again.

4:50 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you very much, Mr. Patry.

Mr. Crête, you have seven minutes.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

I'll be sharing my speaking time with Ms. Deschamps.

Good afternoon, Mr. Clark and Mr. LeBlanc.

Mr. Clark, I would like to make sure I clearly understood you. As the best way of expressing our recognition to Mr. Obama for his election and his different way of doing things, you are suggesting that we make this change of launching into a catch-up exercise in the area of investment in democracy and development, rather than in the military. Is that what you're telling us?

I'd like you to state what significant and symbolic actions Canada could take specifically.

4:50 p.m.

Former Prime Minister, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians

Joe Clark

One thing is interesting with regard to the Obama administration. In her first speech as Secretary of State, Mrs. Clinton emphasized the importance of development on the one hand and diplomacy on the other.

Of course, the United States, like Canada, will continue to play a military role and a traditional security role. So we've accepted that in its case, and we must accept the fact that in our case, there's been a decline in importance of our roles, other than those related to national defence, which are essential in today's world.

We are lucky in Canada. Canada adopted this position long before the United States did. That position has now been adopted by Mr. Obama.

One possibility is open to us. We have what it takes to be a partner that is consistent with the aspirations of the new U.S. administration.

4:50 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Is there a symbolic issue on which you would expect action by us?

For example, the President of the United States has just invited Mr. Ban Ki-moon to meet him. That is a recognition of the United Nations that the Bush administration didn't make.

Could Canada, and not necessarily in the person of the Prime Minister, take what you would consider more appropriate action, in relation to Africa, for example?

4:50 p.m.

Former Prime Minister, Canadian Association of Former Parliamentarians

Joe Clark

Canada would probably not be able to make a great gesture. It is harder for us to make great gestures. However, we could make a specific commitment in Africa or the Caribbean, for example. The Caribbean is experiencing terrible problems. Other countries ignore the Caribbean islands. In view of the current economic crisis and its major impact on those small islands, and particularly in view of the threat of organized crime in that region and in central America, Canada will perhaps have a role to play. Canada could play that kind of role much more effectively than the United States.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

Mr. LeBlanc, you occupy a very strategic position, which consists in promoting a U.S. state to Canada and vice versa.

You are here, in Canada. From your perspective, what are the most important actions that Canada should take so that its image in the United States and its actions enhance exchanges between the two countries, for example?

4:55 p.m.

André J. Leblanc

I don't know whether you're familiar with the SEUS-CP Alliance, which is an association of Canadian provinces and U.S. states. It's precisely that.

With your permission, I'm going to answer you in English.

I've been living in the States for 12 years and I'm a little more comfortable in English at this point.

We find that what politicians can really bring to the table is their gravitas. It's very difficult to bring corporate leadership together at any given place, at any given time, and we've been very successful. I think SEUS is an example of that, whereby we've really been able to advance trade and commerce by bringing in the political leadership and their business contingents. We found that to be very successful, certainly in SEUS-Japan, in SEUS-Europe, and now with SEUS-Canada, which was founded in 2007. We had the inaugural meeting, I think you'll recall, in Montreal in 2007. That's certainly one example where we've been very successful.

I personally have been able to work with Canadian consulates in Atlanta and Raleigh, which I have certainly found to be useful, but there doesn't seem to be the same response on a commercial level that we find—certainly at our state level—just in working with industry. And again, I'm not an expert on what Canada does per se in its consulates, but with the individuals I've worked with, they've always seemed underresourced and generally unavailable. So certainly that might be an approach you might want to consider.

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

You agree with Mr. Clark that the decline in the number of resources and their availability or additional training would be appropriate.

4:55 p.m.

Managing Director, State of South Carolina - Canada Office

4:55 p.m.

Bloc

Paul Crête Bloc Montmagny—L'Islet—Kamouraska—Rivière-du-Loup, QC

In that way, the multiplications would be more effective.

4:55 p.m.

Managing Director, State of South Carolina - Canada Office

André J. LeBlanc

I'll use as an example the U.S. Commercial Service. Most American states, when they're seeking to expand trade in any particular region, will task the U.S. Commercial Service through the consular offices in that location, which will bring tremendous resources to bear. Now mind you, it is a pay-as-you-go approach; so these programs are self-funding, if you will. To be honest with you, I don't know if that's available through the Canadian consular service. Certainly, as a commerce official for the State of South Carolina, I've never been approached by them, so I have to assume it's not something that goes on, generally speaking.

4:55 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Kevin Sorenson

Thank you, Mr. LeBlanc.

Madame Deschamps, you'll probably have a second round, but go ahead. You have a minute.