Evidence of meeting #18 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 40th Parliament, 3rd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was c-300.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Richard Steiner  Professor and Conservation Specialist, International Union for the Conservation of Nature, As an Individual
Steven Schnoor  As an Individual
Carlo Dade  Executive Director, Canadian Foundation for the Americas (FOCAL)

11:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Steven Schnoor

As far as I know, no. I know that the mining company provided some water that they said was not for human consumption. It was not for human consumption because it was evidently too toxic for human consumption. The company recognized this.

What the people would say in response to that was that, well, they're being told to use this water to wash their clothes and perhaps water their crops, so it's impossible for it not to get into their bodies. If they water their crops with this water, they say, it gets into the soil and then it gets into the food they eat. So they felt that it was kind of a ridiculous gesture on behalf of the company; some felt this way.

As far as I know, they have never been compensated for the drinking water. That's as far as I know.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you for that.

I also have some concerns around your treatment from the embassy. I was in Guatemala more than 20 years ago and had to receive services from the embassy. I find the reaction that you received from the embassy a little disturbing. I mean, this happened....

The ambassador is no longer there, is he?

11:55 a.m.

As an Individual

Steven Schnoor

That's correct.

11:55 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Is there a different point of view from the embassy presently? Are you aware of what they say about the claims from people in the area and the concerns they have? Do you know if that point of view has changed from the embassy or does it remain the same? Or are you aware?

Noon

As an Individual

Steven Schnoor

I couldn't comment on any changes that may have ensued since Ambassador Kenneth Cook departed from his position.

Noon

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I think we'd be interested in that. Maybe we'll figure out a way of doing that. I suppose I could write a letter to find out what is the point of view. We need to have a balanced point of view, and if we're seen to be tipping the hat to one side or the other...including you.

If the ambassador saw your evidence, he shouldn't go out and promote your film just because you provided your point of view to him, nor should he do it for the other side. That's just straightforward diplomacy. So I find that of concern, particularly when we're spreading our reach in Latin America and seemingly wanting to promote business interests over others.

I want to turn my questioning now to Professor Steiner.

I'm interested in your comments about the Nautilus project. In light of recent events that have occurred, why we should care about this, and why should Canada in particular care about this, and how would Bill C-300 actually have any effect on that project and your concerns?

Noon

Prof. Richard Steiner

For the Nautilus project, the company was based in Vancouver at one point, then Toronto, so there's some Canadian mining interests in it. I think Barrick might have some interest in the project. I'm not very clear about how the corporate conglomerate is comprised, but the project has proceeded. There have been a number of questions locally along the coast of Papua New Guinea regarding civic engagement. Many of the people do not feel listened to.

It's the same old situation where Nautilus, the company, has gone through selected individuals to pay to then purport that the project is okay, that it will not cause any damage. In my view, they've co-opted the government process there, and in developing countries, it's quite easy.

Actually, in developed countries, in the United States, it's quite easy for these very savvy extractive industry companies to co-opt the government process. It's even easier for these companies to do so in governments in developing countries, such as in Papua New Guinea. It's easy to corrupt. It's easy to bribe. It's easy to co-opt process and that's what's gone on there.

I don't think the environmental impact statement.... I wrote a long technical review of it and it simply is not fit to purpose.... If Bill C-300were in place, the local people in Papua New Guinea, could file a complaint that transparency, civic engagement, and free prior and informed consent have not been achieved, and they do not have the social licence to operate yet. Then your ministers would take a look at that and assert that either those claims are valid or they're not, and then propose mitigation for such.

I also wanted to mention on the question you asked—

Noon

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Can I just interrupt you for a second? Sorry, but just remind me: the exact project is what in the case of the Nautilus project?

Noon

Prof. Richard Steiner

I'm sorry. The exact project is the first ever seabed mining commercial venture in human history. It will be to mine the sea floor's massive sulphide deposits at deep sea hydrothermal vent systems a mile deep in the Bismarck Sea, off New Ireland and Papua New Guinea. It's the first in history. It's a remarkable technology, but as it is the first such project in history, it should be looked at with great scrutiny, both by the Government of Papua New Guinea, the company, and the host governments--the Government of Canada as well.

If I might also, on this embassy connection that Mr. Schnoor mentioned, I had a flashback to when I was just down in El Salvador two months ago at a meeting with the U.S. embassy representatives about the problems with Pacific Rim, because it is also licensed in the United States, not just Canada. They were completely on the side of the company, against the Government of El Salvador and against the people of Cabañas, where the mine is proposed. I found that stunning. This is in the Obama administration—a new administration, mind you, and the new ambassador had yet to get down there—but they favour it.

Pacific Rim has filed a CAFTA claim at the International Centre for Settlement of Investment Disputes at the World Bank in Washington. Those disputes are being arbitrated right now. The embassy of the United States said it supports the claims by the company for hundreds of millions of dollars in compensation from the Government of El Salvador because the government did not grant them their licence to operate.

I'm saying the embassies need to be much more diplomatic; it's not unique to just Canada.

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Fair point.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thanks, Mr. Dewar.

I believe Mr. Patry has just a 30-second question. Then we're going to wrap up.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Yes. Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

Professor Steiner, you've just brought up a point about El Salvador. I just want to know about that, because it's my understanding that it's the first time in the world that a country stopped all mining operations, because it seems that it's very valuable for these countries.

In El Salvador, were all the companies that were not allowed to operate—I don't say kicked out—Canadian companies? Were there major or any consequences for El Salvador at that time?

12:05 p.m.

Prof. Richard Steiner

This is an interesting nexus with what Bill C-300 would do. Had Bill C-300 been law five years ago, ten years ago, then this project that Mr. Schnoor talked about in the Siria Valley in Honduras, the San Martin project, would have been operated more responsibly.

Here's how it bleeds across borders. The people in Cabañas in El Salvador went and visited this site, the San Martin mine. They saw the atrocities that occurred there. They came back to El Salvador and said, “There is no way that we want this kind of damage done in El Salvador”. This spread throughout the nation. The new president said, “This isn't worth it and we're proposing to ban all metal mining within the country”.

Yes, as far as I know, it would be the first country in the world to do such.... Think about the competitive disadvantage that places on other legitimate Canadian mining companies that may want to do mining in El Salvador someday.

So that's why this is a very prudent piece of legislation, I think, in the interests of economic development.

12:05 p.m.

Liberal

Bernard Patry Liberal Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC

Thank you.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

I have a point of order.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Is it going to be at this time? I'll wait here.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

Peter Goldring Conservative Edmonton East, AB

I certainly hope so.

Professor Steiner mentioned in our interchange that the United States CSR does compel not only the extractive industry, but indeed all industry, to comply with international human rights standards. It would be helpful for us to understand best practices of other countries if we perhaps had some documentation on that to look it. That would be very helpful for us, particularly when we're doing clause-by-clause afterwards.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Okay. I'm not sure that's a point of order, but anyway.... I don't know where we're going to get that information.

All right--

12:05 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

The Library of Parliament.

12:05 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

I want to thank both witnesses.

Mr. Schnoor, thank you very much for being here today.

Professor Steiner, thank you as well.

I'm going to suspend for one minute so we can change the name tags and welcome new witnesses. Then we'll be right back at it. Thanks.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Before we get started with Mr. Dade, I know that Mr. Abbot wants to report a suggestion.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

Jim Abbott Conservative Kootenay—Columbia, BC

I made a suggestion to some people on this committee and our whips: that since Mr. Obhrai, Mr. Rae, and I will be unavailable for committee meetings on June 1 and June 3, we cancel those meetings and reconvene on June 8, June 10, and so on.

I would therefore like to propose a motion to that effect.

12:10 p.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I have a point of order.

To be fair to Mr. Abbott, he canvassed me and others, and he knows I'm against the idea. In terms of procedure, we're not actually seized with this at this point. He can still pose it, but I'm not willing to give consent at this point. We're not seized with this matter so I don't see...unless he has unanimous consent to go ahead with it.

Frankly, I don't see the purpose. People are often out of the country or out of the city, and they get subs in. We've missed a lot of time because of prorogation. We have a lot of work to do. Just on procedure, unless he has unanimous consent, I don't think it's in order.

Thank you.

12:10 p.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

My sense is that I don't have that consent, so we'll have to discuss it at another time. It is on the table. We could possibly discuss it at the next meeting. It's going to take 48 hours to work it into the routine, as I see we don't have unanimous consent, and we are seized with Bill C-300 right now.

Madame Deschamps, do you have a quick question or point of order?