Foreign Affairs Committee on March 23rd, 2010

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Welcome to the Standing Committee on Foreign Affairs and International Development, on the matter of some committee business.

I'm hoping this meeting doesn't take too long. I believe we want to agree to a speakers list in terms of witnesses we're going to bring in to deal with Rights and Democracy. I know we have a motion before us.

The other thing I want to touch on briefly is that on the 25th we have the UN High Commissioner for Refugees prepared to come to the first hour.

There was also a request by the Canadian Global Campaign for Education, a group that wanted to appear before us. My question would be whether the committee wished to entertain this organization. If not, there is no requirement for us to do so. They sent us a letter just indicating that they'd like-

[Bernard Patry, Liberal, Pierrefonds—Dollard, QC]

What's the date on the letter?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

It's dated March 25.

[An hon. member]

Who are they?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

It's in regard to UNESCO's Education for All Global Monitoring Report. They wanted to go through that. I don't know whether anyone would be interested in entertaining that request or not.

That said, going back to Mr. Patry's motion the other day, I wonder whether we would have some consensus to look at that motion. I know there were some dates set there. If we were okay with the list that Mr. Patry had set forward, we could probably schedule them in best over the next couple of weeks. I know we have a list here from the last time and we are going to add people to that as well.

Mr. Abbott

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Thank you, Chair.

Just before I start my comments on the issue at hand, I would suggest in the spirit of cooperation—and I'm quite serious, although I realize that some people have chosen to doubt that—that we work cooperatively together as much as we possibly can. We have certain rules that we work around, and sometimes we work them to our advantage, or whatever it is, but I noted that following the in camera meeting, I believe it was at the last meeting, the chair had not made any comment whatsoever about what occurred at that meeting. I don't think there was anyone who was authorized to make any comment about what happened at the in camera meeting—because that's the whole purpose of an in camera meeting—and I was interested to note that, about ten minutes after the meeting, the content of the meeting, the decisions of the meeting, turned up on a blog in public, in the public Internet space.

I just think all of us, myself included, have to be very conscious of this kind of thing. We have to have a level of trust with each other, particularly around in camera meetings, and I say that to myself; all of us do. Particularly, each of us is responsible for any staff member we may have here. We are fully responsible for whatever that staff member may or may not do.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

On a point of order, have you talked to your colleague about this?

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

Yes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I thought it was dealt with and I thought it was understood.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

No, this is a new incident.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Oh, okay, because there was something and I was taking it personally. But you're talking about something else.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

All of us get into battle enough as it is--

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Fair enough.

[Jim Abbott, Conservative, Kootenay—Columbia, BC]

--and we try to work within those rules. So that's it.

Mr. Chair, as we know, the issue at hand is establishing the Rights and Democracy witness list for the committee. My position remains the same. I used many illustrations of the CBC and the EDC, and all the rest of it, the other day. I feel very strongly about that. I do believe there are a myriad of international issues that need to be discussed at our committee, and I'm not sure there's any great value in prolonging the Rights and Democracy hearings. However, that said, because of the reality of the makeup of the committee and the fact that, notwithstanding that if I could convince my colleagues on this side of the table to accept my position we would still be outvoted, I'll be perfectly happy to accept—or not happy, but I will accept—whatever is the decision of the majority. As a consequence, I don't think there is any point in me trying to describe further what my concerns are, so I cede the floor.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks.

I have a list here. We have Mr. Rae, Mr. Obhrai, and Mr. Dewar.

Mr. Rae, I'll turn the floor over to you, sir.

[Bob Rae, Liberal, Toronto Centre, ON]

Mr. Chairman, in the spirit that my good friend Mr. Abbott has expressed, we are also interested in walking and chewing gum at the same time. That means we understand that there are other things the committee has to do. In the interest of transparency, we have obviously discussed it among other parties in preparation for the meeting. I'm quite happy to suggest that we hear Mr. Guterres in the first hour on Thursday and then move to a discussion of the G-8 meeting. If it's possible to have government witnesses available on Thursday for an hour, I'd be quite happy to accommodate that.

In addition to the names that Mr. Patry has in his original motion, we think that with five sessions between Tuesday, March 30, and Tuesday, April 20--because there is a gap because of the Easter break--we could accommodate the employees who are involved in the dispute. There are the current board members, led by the chairman, Mr. Braun; Mrs. Trépanier; a dissident board member who has now left, Mr. Akhavan; Mr. Broadbent; Mr. Clark; Mr. Allmand; and Mr. Latulippe, who is the new president. Mr. Latulippe would have the last word, in a sense, and would say how we are going to go forward, given all that we've heard and all that has taken place. That is our suggestion, and I think it can be done.

Our only additional request would be to see, before Mr. Braun and Mr. Gauthier appear before us, any contracts they awarded to various public relations firms, investigative firms, legal firms, and internal auditing firms that have been hired by the board since January 2010. We would like to see these contracts before the meeting so that, frankly, it becomes a more useful exchange of information and of fact. I think if we can get some agreement on that, we can move forward.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Okay.

Next to speak are Mr. Deepak Obhrai, Mr. Paul Dewar, Mr. James Lunney, and Mr. Peter Goldring.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

You made an argument in the past that you would like to move forward and so call in witnesses who would get the Rights and Democracy things moving forward. However, it is the desire of the committee to listen to people like Mrs. Trépanier and the others.

While we are going to say it is in the interest of working together and moving forward so that the other agendas can be done, I find it a little strange that at the last minute we have a G-8 request, which we have been doing since the last time and nobody was willing to do that. We would actually be required to follow Mr. Bernard Patry's motion over here to try to accommodate that on Thursday.

I'm not saying the G-8 is not important. I am just saying it is a little too short notice for us. The Minister of Foreign Affairs would be issuing statements and public press conferences on the G-8. I don't think the government is in a position to get something as quickly as Thursday. Nevertheless, it is an important issue.

If I'm not mistaken from Mr. Rae's suggestion, I understand we would meet on Rights and Democracy on Tuesday, March 30, then April 1, 13, 15, and 20. Is that what you are proposing at this stage?

[An hon. member]

It is.

[Deepak Obhrai, Conservative, Calgary East, AB]

All right.

Now, a question was raised in the House yesterday by my colleague on the other side in reference to Mr. Braun not coming on a certain day. If I understand correctly--and this is for the clerk to decide--it is a matter of scheduling and not a matter of stating that the person can come or not. In the past, we have always accommodated somebody whose schedule does not permit them to come on that day. Out of these five meetings with all the proposed witnesses, we are going to have a similar issue where somebody is not available on certain days and may not be able to be accommodated.

I want to make it very clear over here, as a response to the question that arose yesterday, that whether a witness can come or not has nothing to do with the Government of Canada. It is up to the witnesses themselves and their own schedules. As a committee, we can do what we can under the rules of the House of Commons on how to call in witnesses. I want to make it very, very clear that it has nothing to do with the government doing anything on this.

The question is, what is the availability of all the witnesses who have been proposed? I think we will also propose one additional witness. Maybe the better picture would be for the clerk to call all the listed witnesses to find out when they can be fit in.

The issue at hand now is what are we going to do on Thursday during the second hour? If it is possible, I would recommend that we call many of the witnesses and see if there is a possibility to do the Rights and Democracy again on that day. There is a possibility one witness may be available on that day. As soon as we are done with Rights and Democracy, then the steering committee will be able to fill up the other dates in reference to G-8 and other motions we have put forward.

I think that's the way we ultimately would like to proceed.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

I've got on the list here Mr. Dewar, Mr. Lunney, Mr. Goldring, and Mr. Abbott.

I'll state again, the quicker we can nail down the list of witnesses the easier it will be to fit them in according to their schedules. The challenge has been calling on a Tuesday to try to get them for a Thursday, etc.

To Mr. Dewar's point and to your point, Mr. Obhrai, there was a scheduling conflict. Those people will be invited back and once again we expect them to be here. They said they could come. It was just a question of timing.

Mr. Dewar, the floor is yours.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I'm glad to see some consensus.

For the record, I'll be polite, but I was very disappointed. I'd asked a question in the House, and Mr. Obhrai provided a different answer to the question of why was it that Mr. Braun wasn't coming to committee. He was confirmed to come.

There's a pattern here with this board. I'm sure we'll get to it when he comes before the committee. We had him booked for today. As a committee, this isn't about someone who's somehow related to this committee down the line. He's the chair of an institute that, under the legislation that guides it, is accountable to Parliament and to this committee. We had Mr. Beauregard come before the committee in the fall to provide their report.

I have to say for the record that I think what has been put forward by Mr. Rae is reasonable. We're moving forward.

As a member of this committee, I have to say for the record that I'm disappointed at the fact that Mr. Braun has basically decided to ignore us. I'm now hearing that he wouldn't have been available on Thursday because he has a board meeting. This is from a chair and a group of people who cancelled board meetings in June, from what I've heard, so that they could change the agenda on what was happening within the institute. I now hear the agenda for this board meeting on Thursday is so that they can suspend rules, accountability, and procurement. We're being ignored by a group of people so that they can change the rules of the institute in their favour.

Indeed, I'll agree with Mr. Braun on one thing that he stated in an op-ed yesterday. I don't agree with him going after the credibility of a person who has passed away, but I will agree with him on one thing. It is about accountability.

I will state for the record that I want to see all of the contracts this group has put forward, without any accountability, in my opinion. I want to see the things that Mr. Rae has mentioned. Where did they get Treasury Board approval for an untendered contract to secure a PR firm, to have an audit done, and to use an investigative firm that has some interesting background in terms of what they do for their business? I want to see those contracts in front of this committee. If they're going to be suspending rules and accountability on Thursday, I want those contracts in front of this committee when they come. If Mr. Braun and Mr. Gauthier are coming, they need to bring some documents. I'd like to see that in the invite, as Mr. Rae has offered, Mr. Chair.

I will certainly live with the fact that there's a consensus. But as a committee member, I have to state for the record that when someone who should be accountable to this committee turns up his nose at us not once but twice, in a way, because he said he's not available on Thursday so that he can change the rules of the institute, I'm not happy. I certainly am happy to work with the committee to make sure we can get on with this.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Mr. Lunney.

[James Lunney, Conservative, Nanaimo—Alberni, BC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

It is nice to see some agreement breaking out around the table. However, I have to take exception to Mr. Dewar raising the issue of having to subpoena witnesses. The reality is that we haven't come to an agreement yet on the slate of witnesses. It's not the fault of the people who are being asked to appear.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

On a point of order, this was regarding a witness who refused to come to this committee when he was asked to.