Foreign Affairs Committee on Aug. 8th, 2011

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

I call the meeting to order.

Welcome to meeting number 2. Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), today we have our briefing on the situation in Libya.

In terms of how we're going to handle today's proceedings, we are going to start with the situation in Libya. We will go to about 2:30 p.m. and then we're going to look at the situation in Somalia. We're going to move forward fairly quickly. I notice that not all of our colleagues are here yet, but I think we need to get started so that we can keep on time.

We will start with our ambassador, Ms. Sandra McCardell, who is Canada's ambassador to Libya. Welcome.

We will then move along to the Canadian International Development Agency and Stephen Salewicz, who is director of the international humanitarian assistance division. He is joined by Sean Boyd, who is the acting regional director general for Europe, Middle East, and Maghreb.

We will then move to the Department of National Defence with Major-General Jonathan Vance, director of staff for strategic joint staff, who will be doing the presentation. Joining him today is Brigadier-General Mike Hood, deputy director general for international security policy, and Brigadier-General Blaise Cathcart, Judge Advocate General.

Thank you very much for being here today.

Why don't we get started? The three of you have opening statements. We will proceed with Ms. McCardell and then we'll move across the room.

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell, Ambassador, Embassy of Canada to Libya]

Thank you very much.

Members of the standing committee, since the uprising began in February, the Libyan people have shown great resolve in their efforts to create a Libya that respects the principles of democracy and good governance and reflects the aspirations of its people.

In the face of continued resistance by the Gadhafi regime to this change and the evident willingness of Gadhafi and his inner circle to sacrifice not only the hopes of their people but their very lives to maintain a hold on power, Canada and its international partners have shown determination to support the courageous efforts of the Libyan people.

In February of this year Moammar Gadhafi and his son Saif al-Islam Gadhafi demonstrated to the world their violent response to the Arab spring. Saif al-Islam, now under an arrest warrant from the International Criminal Court, spoke on Libyan state television on February 20 and promised, “We fight to the last man and woman and bullet. We will not lose Libya”.

Unfortunately, the last five and a half months have shown that the Gadhafi family intends to fulfill that pledge quite literally.

In the face of the unrelenting killings of unarmed protesters, Canada pressed early for international action and, on February 26^th, the UN Security Council passed resolution 1970 which demanded “steps to fulfill the legitimate demands of the Libyan population” and imposed a travel ban, an asset freeze, and an arms embargo to back this call.

Canada acted quickly to implement these measures, going beyond the organizations and individuals listed by the UN.

Regrettably for the people of Libya, there was no respite from the bloody crackdown. In mid-March, with regime forces on the outskirts of Benghazi, Gadhafi promised to purify Libya inch by inch, house by house, person by person, until the country was clean of the dirt and impurities--and this from a man who had already described his people as rats and dogs.

In response to this clear threat and with an unprecedented call from the Arab League for a no-fly zone, the UN Security Council passed resolution 1973 on March 17, authorizing the use of all necessary measures to protect civilians and civilian-populated areas under threat of attack.

The departure of Gadhafi from power has been recognized by the international community as essential to ensuring the future security of the civilian population and the stability of Libya. Statements of the contact group on Libya have repeated this view, which was shared by the G-8 at the Deauville summit in its declaration. It said:

Gadhafi and the Libyan government have failed to fulfill their responsibility to protect the Libyan population and have lost all legitimacy. He has no future in a free, democratic Libya. He must go.

Canada was among the first participants in the coalition-led and subsequently NATO-led military mission in support of resolution 1973. Our actions have supported Canadian values of democracy, freedom, the rule of law, and human rights, and have served to strengthen our relations with key allies through our common efforts to address security threats at source.

Gadhafi spoke publicly of his disdain for democracy movements in Tunisia and Egypt, and has threatened that Libyans will move like locusts to attack homes and offices and families in Europe.

The contact group on Libya, of which Canada is a member, was created as a forum to coordinate the international political response to the Libya crisis, provide a focal point for contact to the Libyan opposition, and support a peaceful and stable transition in Libya. Each meeting has seen an increased number of participants, now reaching 39, and has served as a demonstration of the ever-widening international opposition to the Gadhafi regime.

During its four meetings, the most recent of which took place in Istanbul on July 15 with the participation of Minister Baird, the contact group has sought to identify political, economic, and humanitarian measures that can be taken by the international community to further isolate Gadhafi and support the Libyan opposition National Transitional Council, or NTC. In Istanbul the contact group agreed to deal with the NTC as the legitimate governing authority in Libya until an interim authority is in place.

In addition, some important overarching principles to guide the political transition process were set forth. The first is that Gadhafi must leave power according to a defined framework. Second, there will be respect for the territorial integrity, sovereignty, and unity of Libya. Third, there will be justice for Libyans who have suffered atrocities, perpetrators of atrocities cannot be part of the negotiating process or a future political settlement, and there will be a transition period, as outlined in the NTC's road map, to include a national congress, an interim government, and a supreme executive council. Fourth, there will be a transitional process that is inclusive, Libyan-owned, and representative, and includes the potential participation of members of the previous bureaucracy as well as the opposition and other elements of Libyan society in a process leading to national reconciliation.

The contact group has encouraged participants to provide financial aid to the NTC within the context of applicable laws and has suggested that participants consider allowing the export of oil by opposition-controlled entities, the unfreezing of assets for the benefit of the Libyan people, or the use of these assets as loan guarantees.

The Istanbul meeting also noted the continued urgent need for the establishment of a genuine ceasefire and safe humanitarian access, but specified that these require the immediate withdrawal of the forces of the regime in Tripoli to their base, the release of all those detained or kidnapped by the Gadhafi regime, the opening of all borders to ensure fast and unimpeded passage of humanitarian aid, the treatment of the wounded, and the provision of water and electricity to all cities and regions to help normalize life.

While predominant in the east of the country, the NTC brings together diverse elements from within Libyan society including representatives from many major cities across Libya, business and professional people, and former government officials. Its declared vision is a democratic one, its membership united in the common goal of replacing the current regime. The NTC is by its name “transitional”, with the mandate to prepare for a more permanent duly-elected government.

On June 14 Canada recognized the NTC as the legitimate representative of the Libyan people.

Less than two weeks later Minister Baird travelled to Benghazi, where he met with the chair of the NTC, Mustafa Abdul-Jalil, along with members of the council and representatives of local civil society, in addition to providing 355 trauma kits to respond to urgent medical needs.

The minister was impressed by the council's clear commitment to rebuilding Libya despite the significant personal sacrifices that almost all council members had made. During his discussions, the minister made clear to the NTC that the international community has the mandate to protect civilians in Libya, but that it is the responsibility of the NTC to liberate their country. The minister welcomed the commitment of the NTC to principles of democracy, good governance, and human rights, as outlined in their vision of a democratic Libya, but underlined the importance of ensuring these principles are put into action.

The minister raised with the NTC his concern at the use of rape as a weapon of war, and Libyan opposition echoed the gravity of these heinous crimes and underlined the cultural sensitivities relating to under-reporting. Victims are reluctant to come forward for treatment or support in a country that in any case has virtually no experience in providing it.

Although Gaddafi has put his own interests above those of his country, the day will come when he will finally relinquish power. After more than 40 years of Gaddafi, Libya is a society with weak institutions and civil society.

His style of rule encouraged and exploited tribal influences to prevent the creation of unified opposition to him, in addition to using the state security apparatus to intimidate and repress when necessary.

Following the end of the conflict, a process of national reconciliation will be required, as well as assistance from the international community to support the building of democratic institutions.

As Minister Baird said following his visit to Benghazi, “No one expects the next steps of Libya’s transition to be easy”.

The Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade is leading a whole-of-government effort that will respond to a post-Gadhafi Libya with targeted assistance where Canada has value added. Canada's efforts will be coordinated with international partners, including the United Nations, and respond to the needs and aspirations as expressed by the Libyan people.

In closing, I would like to remind members of the standing committee of the statement of the Prime Minister of Canada on March 16, the day prior to the adoption of resolution 1973 by the UN Security Council:

One either believes in freedom or one just says one believes in freedom. The Libyan people have shown by their sacrifice that they believe in it. Assisting them is a moral obligation upon those of us who profess this great ideal.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Ambassador.

We are now going to move on to CIDA.

Mr. Salewicz, the floor is yours, sir.

[Stephen Salewicz, Director, International Humanitarian Assistance Division, Canadian International Development Agency]

Thank you very much, and thank you for the invitation to this committee meeting.

I'd like to speak with you today about CIDA's response to the Libyan crisis.

The nature of the conflict in Libya is driving the humanitarian response in such a way that programming is divided into two distinct but interrelated operations. First, we're focusing on a response along Libya's borders in support of those who have fled the crisis. Inside Libya, we're focusing on a response to the needs of the population caught in the midst of a series of localized but intense conflict zones.

In the border regions the ongoing crisis has resulted in the outflow of a large number of people from Libya. As of August 1, 646,600 migrants have crossed the Libyan border into Tunisia, Egypt, Chad, Niger, Algeria, and Sudan to escape the violence. These people fit into two categories: they are either third-country nationals--i.e., migrants who have crossed from Libya to a country that is not their country of origin--or migrants who have returned to their own country.

The humanitarian response in the border regions has concentrated on the needs of nearly 300,000 third-country nationals who are migrant workers from more than 25 countries, as well as other people of concern, namely refugees.

This assistance has come in the form of transit camps established at crossing points in Tunisia, as well as some facilities in Egypt to shelter the displaced and provide requisite services until they are repatriated to their countries of origin or, in the case of refugees, until longer-term solutions can be found.

To date, as of August 1, some 156,300 migrant workers, or third-country nationals, have been assisted to return to their countries of origin. The International Organization of Migration, IOM, has helped to assist in this process, thereby averting a humanitarian crisis on the borders.

To help respond to the specific needs of the people caught in the border regions, CIDA is working with a number of organizations, namely, as I mentioned, the IOM, as well as the United Nations High Commissioner for Refugees, the International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies, and the Canadian Red Cross Society.

Canadian support is assisting in the repatriation of over 156,000 migrant workers to their countries of origin by providing shelter, food, water, and non-food items to 150,000 migrants, refugees, and other persons of concern stranded on the Egyptian and Tunisian borders. Canadian assistance also supports the basic health care for 100,000 people in transit.

Turning to the situation inside Libya, in opposition-controlled areas in the east around Benghazi, the humanitarian situation is largely stable with extensive access and freedom of movement reported by humanitarian actors.

Humanitarian needs in these areas are modest and activities are focused on responding to some food and non-food distribution, provision of medical supplies, and water and sanitation activities.

However, there are many pockets of intense fighting along the frontlines between the opposing forces as well as in isolated opposition-controlled areas in the west of the country. The intensity of the fighting in these locations has placed the civilian population at greater risk and has resulted in intermittent and/or limited access for all but a few experienced humanitarian actors.

To help respond to the needs of Libyans affected by the conflict in-country, CIDA is working with the World Food Programme, the International Committee of the Red Cross and the United Nations Population Fund.

CIDA support to its partners has helped provide food assistance and non-food items, as well as meet the water, sanitation and emergency medical needs of more than 500,000 people inside Libya. Funding to UNFPA will assist up to 50,000 women and girls affected by gender-based violence.

Of note, the funding to WFP and the ICRC is regional in nature, and includes the provision of assistance to Libyans and others affected by the conflict in Tunisia and Egypt as well those in Libya.

However, the funding to UNFPA is to protect and assist women and girls from gender-based violence, primarily in Libya.

This brings CIDA’s total humanitarian assistance to $10 million, announced by the Prime Minister and Minister Oda on June 14 ($2 million) and in March ($8 million).

CIDA continues to closely monitor the humanitarian situation in Libya and the surrounding countries.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Salewicz.

Now we're going to move to Major-General Vance from the Department of National Defence.

The floor is yours, sir.

[Major-General Jonathan Vance, Director of Staff, Strategic Joint Staff, Department of National Defence]

Mr. Chair, members of the committee, thank you for this opportunity to brief you on Operation MOBILE, Canada’s military contribution to the international effort to respond to the crisis in Libya.

I am Major-General Jonathan Vance, Director of Staff of the Strategic Joint Staff at NDHQ.

With me this afternoon is Brigadier-General Mike Hood, deputy director general, international security policy at DND, as well as Brigadier-General Blaise Cathcart, the Judge Advocate General.

Before you—I hope—are four slides which outline the Canadian Forces involvement in the NATO mission in Libya. I would like to walk you through our past and present contributions to the mission after which we would be pleased to answer your questions.

Generally speaking, the first part of the information will be on slide 1.

Since Ambassador McCardell has already well summarized the broader diplomatic and political situation, I will focus my comments on the military aspects of the international effort.

In response to the emerging crisis in Libya, in February of this year the Government of Canada advised Canadian citizens to leave Libya. Soon after, the Department of Foreign Affairs began a concerted effort to evacuate all Canadians. The Canadian Forces were asked to assist, and we deployed two C-17 Globemaster transport planes and two C-130 Hercules transport planes to help evacuate Canadians and other eligible individuals.

On March 2, the ship HMCS Charlottetown with an embarked Sea King helicopter departed from Halifax for the Mediterranean. On March 14, the Charlottetown joined the NATO fleet off the coast of Libya and began enforcement of the arms embargo shortly thereafter.

In total, the Canadian Forces conducted seven flights and assisted in evacuating 153 Canadians and entitled persons from Libya. In addition, the non-combatant evacuation operation coordination centre, which is an international body, assisted with the departure of 4,431 entitled persons, including 308 Canadians, before ceasing operations on March 9.

As you know, this initial 90-day Canadian military response was supported unanimously in the House of Commons. In June, the House voted to support the extension of Canada's commitment to the NATO mission until September 27, 2011.

On slide 2 we're now looking at CF support to Operation Unified Protector. It is our Operation Mobile.

Canada has provided significant military support to the NATO mission in the form of both air and sea assets. Presently we have seven CF-18 Hornet fighters, one CC-150 Polaris air refueller or tanker, two CC-130 Hercules aircraft, and two CP-140 Aurora maritime patrol aircraft deployed in the region, as well as HMCS Charlottetown with her helicopter embarked.

Canadian Lieutenant-General Charles Bouchard remains in the critical position of NATO Commander of Combined Joint Task Force for Operation UNIFIED PROTECTOR.

Unified Protector, the NATO name of the operation, has three clear objectives that are known as the Berlin goals. These goals were set by NATO foreign affairs ministers last April and include an end to attacks against civilians, the verifiable withdrawal of the regime's military and paramilitary forces to bases, and full and unhindered access to humanitarian aid to all those who need it across Libya.

If you would like to turn to the map on slide 3, I will briefly discuss the current situation on the ground.

Along the coast, the lines of confrontation between pro-Gadhafi forces and anti-Gadhafi forces east of Tripoli and in the east near Brega have seen minor fluctuations as the anti-Gadhafi forces continue to work and push west.

There has been an increase in activity in the Nafusa mountains southwest of Tripoli. Anti-Gadhafi forces have made advances in the region, but the situation remains very dynamic. The significance of these advances is that the main supply routes are no longer under the control of the pro-Gadhafi forces, allowing humanitarian assistance, as was stated earlier, to move more freely from Tunisia into the region.

At present, it appears as though the pro-Gadhafi forces are maintaining a largely defensive posture. They continue to hold ground, especially in urban areas, and seem to have access to stable financial resources. While the finances of the anti-Gadhafi forces are improving, coordination of their fighting elements over the three main efforts that I've just described remains difficult, in part due to a lack of staff training and cohesive command and control. In short, the situation remains fluid and difficult to predict.

If I may, I would like to briefly outline some operational milestones, first In terms of the Berlin goals and an end to attacks against civilians. NATO allies and partners have severely reduced Gadhafi's ability to attack civilians and continue to do so. The no-fly zone and embargo have been enforced and pro-regime threats are being eliminated. Rapid enforcement of the no-fly zone assisted anti-Gadhafi forces efforts early to protect Benghazi, preventing the potential for many civilian casualties at the hands of Gadhafi.

NATO actions have increased survivability and effectiveness of anti-Gadhafi forces, pressuring Gadhafi's forces to withdraw and thus moving toward achieving the second Berlin goal.

With regard to the third Berlin goal, ensuring unhindered access to humanitarian aid, NATO's efforts have greatly reduced the effectiveness of pro-Gadhafi forces maritime capacity and helped to ensure the ongoing flow of humanitarian supplies into Misrata.

If you turn to slide 4, you will see some figures on the Canadian contribution relative to the broader coalition effort. There was a coalition total of 17,278 sorties, of which 7,258 were strikes, 137 were maritime air patrol sorties, and 3,896 were air-to-air refuelling sorties.

In terms of the Canadian contribution, all percentages here are approximate, but it's the best I can do. We have conducted 8% of all offensive counter-air sorties, which is 598; 4% of all air-to-air refuelling sorties, which is 171; and 79% of all maritime patrol aircraft sorties, which is 108. This is 6% of the overall total, and Canada has expended approximately 455 of our laser-guided bombs.

Under the maritime aspect, the coalition has conducted 203 boardings of suspicious vessels, with Canada having done five of them. HMCS Charlottetown has actively prevented pro-Gadhafi maritime forces from closing the port of Misrata. The continued presence of HMCS Charlottetown ensures the delivery of vital humanitarian aid.

As you can see, Canada is more than pulling its weight militarily. However, I would like to stress that we see our contribution as just one facet of a broader diplomatic and humanitarian effort to help the Libyan people. A sustainable peace cannot be achieved by military means alone.

Thank you for your time. We are ready to answer any questions you may have.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Major-General Vance.

We are going to start with our new rotation. This is the first time we've had a chance to ask questions since we formed our committee, so we'll see how that works today.

Mr. Dewar, you are starting off. You have the floor for seven minutes, sir.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests.

As the chair mentioned, this is the first time the committee has met and, I might add, the first time the foreign affairs committee has actually been formally seized with this issue. There have been briefings, and as members of the committee and our guests will know, before the election we passed a motion on participation and in support of UN resolution 1973; however, we have not had a chance--and this comment is without prejudice--to actually meet, so first of all, thank you to our guests for being here. I think it's important that we meet today since, as I mentioned, as a government and a country we signed on to participate in resolution 1973, but we have yet to meet formally to evaluate it.

I will start with a question for you, Ambassador.

As we have been viewing the mission and as things have been going on, we have heard from our spokespersons from the military side with regard to NATO's Berlin goals. We are seized--and certainly this is reflected in the amendments to the motion in the House--with UN resolution 1973. The goals of that included, of course, protection of civilians as well as a ceasefire and some form of political settlement.

There have been changes recently. As you mentioned in your comments, our allies have gone from initially saying that Gadhafi had to go to saying that we need to find some form of negotiation so that we can end what seems to be an ongoing conflict and find a political solution. You made reference to the contact group.

Through the chair, could you please update us on Canada's role in being seized with this UN resolution and in working with the UN rapporteur who is also seized with it? Is there sufficient coordination with the UN rapporteur and the contact group? Is Canada involved in that process with the UN rapporteur, and, if so, how closely?

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

Just to clarify, I am not aware of a UN rapporteur. Do you mean the UN special envoy charged with the political negotiations?

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Yes.

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

That is former Jordanian foreign minister Abdelilah al-Khatib.

Regarding the coordination between the UN special envoy and the contact group, I am pleased to confirm that the UN participates at every contact group meeting. We have had four so far. When it is possible within his schedule, Mr. Al-Khatib briefs us directly. If he is not able to, then the UN political affairs department provides an update on his efforts at achieving a political negotiation.

I think it's an important part, because as I indicated in my statement, the contact group really is the international body that can coordinate efforts on a political settlement. Despite the best efforts of our military colleagues, their mandate is quite different, and that is to protect civilians. We have worked with Mr. Al-Khatib and we are participating in the contact group, so we are aware of his briefings at every meeting.

I have met with the UN special adviser for post-conflict planning at each contact group meeting since the time he was named. We work very closely to support Mr. Al-Khatib's efforts and those of the post-conflict planning team in preparing Libya for Gadhafi's eventual departure and to ensure that we have all the tools in place to support a democratic Libya in the period afterward.

As we indicated in our briefing, there have been a number of mediation efforts by the African Union, by Russia, and by Turkey. There have been a number of attempts to reach a basis of compromise between Benghazi and Tripoli. The contact group has served to ensure that all of these efforts have been coordinated under the UN special envoy. If we don't ensure that such coordination takes place, obviously we could face efforts coming at cross-purposes.

One of Canada's roles in the contact group context and in that international forum has been to reaffirm that this must all come under the special envoy and that he is the lead on that coordination process.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you for that.

In light of the fact that we seem to be looking at a bit of a stalemate in the military situation—though there's been news today about some changes in the field—I think everyone has noted that this is not something that will be resolved through military means. I think there's a consensus on that.

If in fact the contact group is not able to find a political settlement between the two groups, can you say what Canada's position will be with regard to Mr. Gadhafi? If there is a settlement satisfying both sides, I assume that Canada will be fine with that and that we'll be in line with our other allies. As we've noted, Prime Minister Cameron said recently that if there is a settlement and Colonel Gadhafi is to remain, that will be fine. Is that Canada's position?

Second, if in September we find ourselves beyond the motion that the House of Commons passed with regard to the extension, will Canada be looking at, or have you heard of, a return to the Security Council for a new resolution? Has that been talked about?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That's almost all the time we have, but I'm going to let you answer the questions.

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

At this point I am not aware of any plans to bring forward a new resolution on Libya. The mandate that we have under resolution 1973 provides the tools to protect the Libyan people, and at this point there isn't an intention to move forward with another resolution that I'm aware of.

With respect to Canada's position on the departure of Gadhafi, as I've mentioned, the contact group is the forum for coordinating international political action and international political positions on a settlement. I think this government has been very clear on the record about the fact that Gadhafi must go. The Prime Minister has been on the record about that and so has my minister, and that has been reaffirmed in every contact group statement and in the G-8's Deauville statement, so I think there is absolutely an international consensus that he needs to leave power. How and under what conditions that happens and what transition follows are for the Libyan people to determine. It's their country, and they're responsible for developing a transitional government as outlined in the road map of the National Transitional Council. It will be for them to determine their future.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ambassador.

We're going to move to Mr. Dechert for seven minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you, ladies and gentlemen, for your remarks this afternoon.

Ambassador McCardell, I'd like to ask you a question about the meeting with the NTC in Benghazi. I understand that you accompanied the minister on that occasion. Can you provide the members with some insight on your visit and your meeting with the NTC, and on some of the issues that were discussed there? What is your overall impression of the NTC? Who are they? How prepared are they to govern Libya in a post-Gadhafi world?

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

On June 27 I was pleased to accompany the minister on his visit to Benghazi, and we thank the Canadian Forces for their assistance in providing the necessary logistics for that visit.

I think it was an important one. Just to be clear with the members, during that visit the minister had the opportunity to meet with the chair of the National Transitional Council, Mustafa Abdul-Jalil. As well, he had an opportunity to meet with the council itself, which had over 30 members present that day, and finally with members of local civil society. He was able to have a broad sense of the National Transitional Council as well as the local population working with them through civil society.

I think the meeting was important for a few reasons. First, it gave the minister an opportunity to make clear to the Libyan opposition all of the steps that Canada has taken to support their efforts politically, militarily, and with humanitarian assistance. It was very much appreciated. They were very grateful to Canada for all the assistance to support their democratic transition.

Second, it gave us an opportunity as well to pass certain important messages to the NTC. At that meeting, the minister underlined that the international mandate was to protect civilians but the responsibility of liberating Libya rested with the NTC, and that they needed to move forward politically and militarily in order to free the rest of their country.

Third, the minister was able to acknowledge the important progress the NTC has made in establishing principles of democracy and good governance through, as I mentioned in my statement, “A Vision of a Democratic Libya” and also their road map, and to underline to them that the establishment of the principles was the first step but that the measure was really in the implementation of them. We were able to express that to them directly.

From their side, I think they were very frank with us about the challenges they face. When they created the NTC at the beginning of March, it was done quickly in response to the clear oppression of peaceful protests in Benghazi. It brought together members of the former regime as well as professionals, lawyers, who had been active in pro-democracy efforts when possible in Libya up until that time. When they assembled in Benghazi, clearly they had no idea what was ahead of them, the length of time that was required, or the challenges they would be facing as an organization in establishing themselves in a country that had no tradition of democratic or national institutions.

Clearly one of the principal challenges they face is developing a democratic culture where one didn't exist before, and in finding the tools to now take care of a territory and a population for which they are now the effective governing authority, as I mentioned in my statement.

In terms of what else we were able to assess, obviously it's important when you can see people face to face. It was very moving, I think, to see the genuine commitment of these individuals to freeing their country, their willingness to sacrifice personally, and the courage they demonstrated.

One woman member who is responsible for health issues shared with us details about a colleague of hers in Tripoli who had taken in opposition victims attacked by the Gadhafi regime. They were unable to go to the hospital because if they were found in the hospital, they were taken out because they were known to be protesters. The end is a disturbing one: her colleague had taken them into her private home, and she was discovered and apparently killed for those efforts.

Certainly understanding the gravity of what these people face.... Their determination was motivating for us to keep the determination that we need to support those efforts.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you.

Can you comment on the recent death of General Younis? In particular, can you update us on the situation and the steps that have been taken by the NTC in regard to his death?

[Her Excellency Sandra McCardell]

Obviously the death of General Younis is a very sad thing. It is obviously a difficult moment for the Libyan opposition.

At this point the circumstances of that death are still not clear, although there is speculation about various actors who could be responsible. What's really key is that this is an important test of the NTC's ability to remain united and their ability to apply the tools of due process and the principles of democracy, which they mean to espouse. Thus far they have taken steps to launch an investigation into these events. They have replaced General Younis with a cousin of his to try to maintain continuity in the military command. They are looking very closely at establishing control over the militias. At the end of the investigation, whether these militias are implicated or not, it has been an important lesson on the need to ensure that all armed elements in the territory are under control.

So far we have seen that they have been able to take those important steps and that, more importantly in the Libyan context, their efforts have been seen to be sufficiently genuine. We have determined that the family and the tribe that General Younis belonged to have accepted those steps. There have been no acts of retaliation, and there has been no retribution thus far. In Libyan terms, if the family were dissatisfied with what they saw as the investigative process, they would have made that very clearly known.

The outcome remains to be seen, but so far the steps taken are the correct ones.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you.

Do I have any further time?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Maybe you will in the next round.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We are going to move to Mr. LeBlanc for seven minutes.

[Dominic LeBlanc, Liberal, Beauséjour, NB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, Ambassador and the other panel members, for being here.

I have two questions. One will be more for the ambassador with respect to the International Criminal Court indictment, but I don't want to miss a chance to ask the military generals who are here, particularly as I haven't seen my old friend Mike Hood for almost 10 years. I knew him when he had a previous assignment. I knew him well before he become a general. Since General Hood is wearing the air force uniform, perhaps I could ask him something.

According to the slides we saw in previous briefings by his colleagues, a huge percentage of the maritime patrol is done by the Canadian Forces. I'm wondering what kinds of missions the maritime patrol would be undertaking and why our effort is so high in proportion to that of our allies. Is it because that's a skill or a capacity we have, and we've chosen to contribute in that way, or are other allies not stepping up with respect to the maritime patrol work? Among other things, I know our forces are doing that very well.

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

Notwithstanding your long-standing connection with the general--