Evidence of meeting #33 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was passports.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
We're not doing that, though, we're just going to have those straight fees, right?
Director General, Policy, Research and Communications, Passport Canada
Yes.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Something in your remarks jumped out at me. You mentioned that you're cost recovery, and I understand that. Then you were saying that Passport Canada currently runs a deficit on every booklet issued. Are you running a deficit year in and year out right now?
Chief Executive Officer, Passport Canada
We are. We try to balance the books. We introduced as many efficiencies as we could. However, through the budget of 2008 and 2010, we got this line of credit on the fiscal framework from the Government of Canada to help us complete the User Fees Act consultation process so as to be able to secure the fee increase that would enable us to modernize and continue to maintain our mandate.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
How big is that line of credit right now, or the deficit? What do you owe on the line of credit? And what will you owe by the time the new fees come into place?
Director, Resource Management and Compliance, Passport Canada
By the end of this current fiscal year, 2012-13, we will have an accumulated deficit of $88 million.
Conservative
Director, Resource Management and Compliance, Passport Canada
We anticipate repaying it over five years.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Okay, thank you.
Bob addressed this, but how big is the problem of passport fraud today in Canada?
Director General, Policy, Research and Communications, Passport Canada
It's one of those problems that's very hard to put a figure on, because if you do your job properly, it's not going to happen. So it's kind of....
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
So you don't want to admit how bad it might be.
Director General, Policy, Research and Communications, Passport Canada
No, I think we do a pretty good job. Increasingly, we have the tools that are allowing us to do it. We've not only instituted facial recognition, but we also have a case management system. We work—
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Let me go the other way. With this new system in place, how confident are you that there will be fewer cases of passport fraud? I don't know the business, but will passports be able to be produced elsewhere, for example?
Director General, Policy, Research and Communications, Passport Canada
No. They're much more difficult to reproduce, and that's why you see the fraud moving from the booklet to the front end.
What we know about the use of e-passports is that once you've locked the chip, it makes it much more difficult for somebody who is a look-alike, for example, to use somebody else's passport. Increasingly, what we see internationally are countries using passports for automated border control. They will take your picture, compare it to the picture on the chip, and do a facial recognition match right at the border control, which will even enhance the security of the process because it will make it even harder to do impersonation.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Thank you.
Do I have time for one more?
My last little bit is just a comment or two. Is there any chance you'd do a passport for 10 years and six months, or five years and six months? I always find it frustrating when I travel and I'm told that the last six months that I've paid for—and are good—are not good in some countries. You can take that away.
I'd ask that when this rolls out, you also provide a good rationale, as you've done today, for all members of Parliament as to why the costs are what they are, particularly vis-à-vis the United States. We seem to be in line with that fee for service. That would help members of Parliament to do their job, because for many members in the House of Commons, we're the first point of reference for applicants.
Thank you.
Director General, Policy, Research and Communications, Passport Canada
We do plan to have a communications campaign. For those of you who are interested, we have videos on our YouTube channel; one of which explains how the agency is financed, and one explains the passports. We may look at doing a video explaining the new fee at the appropriate time.
Conservative
John Williamson Conservative New Brunswick Southwest, NB
Is there any chance that you'll do five years and six months, and 10 years and six months?
Director General, Policy, Research and Communications, Passport Canada
It is not in our current plans.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much.
We're going to move to Ms. Brown, for five minutes.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.
Thank you very much. This has been most helpful to all of us.
I know that in York region, where my riding is, there is a real problem with fraud and the production of identification for a fee, which is then used illicitly. I know that York Regional Police have really struggled to get this under control, so I'm really pleased to hear that these mechanisms are coming into play.
Following up on that, we're talking about fraudulent documents, and really what this passport is going to allow is almost a form of insurance for identity theft, isn't it? Because if I have my passport, which has my photograph embedded in that chip, it's going to be virtually impossible—maybe I shouldn't say that, but almost impossible—for anybody to decode that and prepare documentation that can then steal my identity, because I'll always have that backup with Passport Canada to say that this is the person who presented originally. It's an insurance policy, really, that all Canadians ought to think about in the future.
My question, then, goes to the second step of that. I have my NEXUS card, and I know that NEXUS now has the retina scan that I can step up to. I was at the Toronto airport, and you just step up to the machine and it scans your retina. Is that ever going to become part of Passport Canada? Is that another step down the way, or has it been considered?
Chief Executive Officer, Passport Canada
At this point in time there is no plan to introduce a second biometric to the e-passport. Should that come up there would, of course, need to be some consultations under the Privacy Act, in order to make sure that the proper privacy assessment is made.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
How long would that take to implement? I did my interview and I had my NEXUS card in weeks. Again, it's another form of security.
I'm getting at this whole issue of identity theft, which is becoming more prevalent in our society. I know people in York Region who had their identities stolen, and their house was gone. It follows through a whole number of things. I feel far more secure being able to say that I've had a retina scan, I can prove who I am, and the government has that backup document—or the American government does at this point in time, but my NEXUS card is good.
Can you comment on that?
Director General, Policy, Research and Communications, Passport Canada
The international norm for e-passports, which is set by the International Civil Aviation Organization is the face. The benefit is that all the passport agencies have a face, so it's a relatively simple thing to do.
Those countries that are adding a second biometric to their passports tend to be using a fingerprint as opposed to a retinal scan, I believe, in part because it's easier to collect. Not everybody can give a retinal scan. Some people can't give fingerprints, but I think they're fewer than the number who can't give a retinal scan.
The benefit of a fingerprint biometric is that there's a database you can compare them against. Police agencies, for example, have fingerprints on record. You're only sharing the retinal scans among those people who have collected them for that purpose. In terms of interoperability of information, which is what you want to have at the border, because the border people want to know that you are who you say you are, those that are going there are going to fingerprints on a massive scale as opposed to trusted-traveller programs.
Conservative
Lois Brown Conservative Newmarket—Aurora, ON
I think it is a secondary insurance program, almost. Maybe we need to have some discussion with our insurance companies or mortgage brokers to talk about how that information could be implemented, just to confirm someone's identity.
I just have a comment about consular fees. We know that the money gets transferred into the Consolidated Revenue Fund. I expect that we would see that then transferred through the Department of Foreign Affairs, and the appropriate place to ask that question would be with respect to the estimates. Is that correct?