Evidence of meeting #48 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 1st Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was crescent.

A recording is available from Parliament.

On the agenda

MPs speaking

Also speaking

Mark Bailey  Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade
Leslie Norton  Director General, International Humanitarian Assistance Directorate, Canadian International Development Agency
Susan Johnson  Director General, International Operations and Movement Relations, Canadian Red Cross
Stéphane Michaud  Senior Manager, Emergency Response for International Operations, Canadian Red Cross

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

I want to welcome everybody as we get started, pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), to our briefing on the situation in Syria.

I want to thank our officials here today from both the Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade and CIDA.

We have with us Mr. Mark Bailey, who's the director general of the Middle East bureau.

Mr. Bailey, welcome today, and thank you for taking time to be here.

From CIDA we have Ms. Leslie Norton, who's the director general of the international humanitarian assistance directorate.

Ms. Norton, thank you once again for being here today as well.

I believe, Mr. Bailey, you have an opening statement.

8:50 a.m.

Mark Bailey Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

That's correct, Mr. Chairman, and then we'll take questions.

8:50 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

I think you know how we work around here. We'll then move around the room to ask some questions, back and forth.

Mr. Bailey, once again, thank you for being here. We'll turn it over to you for your opening statement.

8:50 a.m.

Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman and honourable members, for inviting us here to talk today about Syria. It's my pleasure to provide an assessment of the situation in this country, where, frankly, conditions have deteriorated markedly since my predecessor last talked to you in February.

While the number of deaths remains difficult to confirm due to lack of access, it is believed that more than 29,000 people have been killed, and many more are missing. The number of refugees receiving assistance from the UN High Commissioner for Refugees has now surpassed 258,000, with tens of thousands more awaiting registration. An estimated 2.5 million Syrians are in need of assistance, including 1.2 million internally displaced people—that is, those who have had to leave their homes within Syria.

Bashar al-Assad plunged his country into chaos and despair in a vain effort to cling to power. He now finds that his own days are numbered. The question is not whether he will fall but when, and, more importantly, what next? The Syrian regime is slowly collapsing. It's no longer able to maintain control of all of its territory at once. Victory in one location results in loss elsewhere. Meanwhile, the armed opposition is gaining strength, holding its own to an unanticipated degree in Aleppo, and even capturing strategic locations.

Yet the opposition remains fragmented. Without a unified command and control, it is unable to defeat the regime, and the regime itself still has considerable firepower—unused firepower so far—at its disposal. Neither side can achieve a solely military victory at this point. It thus seems likely to result in a prolonged battle with Syria's suffering civilian population caught in the crossfire. Neither side is willing to negotiate seriously and in good faith to achieve a political solution. Both sides fear that the other side seeks its annihilation, and thus they're engaged in a fight to the finish.

The inevitable fall of President Assad is unlikely to mean an immediate end to the bloodshed. Regime remnants will continue to fight. The regime has to some extent lost control of the private shabiha militias it has been deploying against restive communities, and armed opposition actors are deeply divided and increasingly entrenched. As a result, it looks as though the post-Assad phase will continue to be violent. Syria also risks becoming a stage upon which a wider geopolitical and sectarian competition plays out as regional powers back rival forces on the ground.

As a former Canadian ambassador to Syria, I'm heartened but not surprised by the spirit and resilience of the Syrian population. In rebel-held areas, we're seeing opposition and other grassroots actors rise to the challenge of providing local administration and services to their communities. The external opposition is attempting to overcome its fragmentation, but it remains unable to coalesce around a strong leadership and a clear vision for a post-Assad Syria. It has little credibility with Syria's internal opposition and has yet to address the concerns of Syria's ethnic and religious minorities.

Meanwhile we're seeing a number of disturbing trends. Terrorist jihadi networks are taking root on the ground. It's not clear how much support these more extreme actors enjoy amongst the local population, but they are increasingly well armed and organized. This is particularly troubling given Syria's considerable chemical weapons stockpiles.

We don't believe the regime would deploy these weapons against the opposition, and we believe they currently remain under regime control, but a partial loss of control of these stockpiles could have disastrous consequences for the Syrian population and for Syria's neighbours.

The situation in Syria is also posing a growing threat to the stability of its neighbours. Turkey, Jordan, Lebanon, and Iraq are all feeling the strain as they endeavour to meet the needs of a growing Syrian refugee population, which is expected by the UNHCR to surpass 700,000 people by the end of this year, if current trends continue.

Tensions in Syria have resulted in sporadic violence in Lebanon, although all of Lebanon's main political actors, including Hezbollah, have so far shown themselves to be committed to maintaining domestic stability.

Fatal incidents of cross-border shelling recently raised tensions with Turkey to worrying levels, but Turkey, to its credit, has demonstrated considerable restraint in its response.

Canada has taken a strong position on Syria in international fora, including the United Nations and the Friends of the Syrian People. We contributed financially to the mission of former UN-Arab League Joint Special Envoy Kofi Annan, and we support the efforts of his successor Lakhdar Brahimi to achieve a negotiated end to the crisis. The Canadian government has always been vocal in urging the UN Security Council to impose binding economic sanctions and an arms embargo on the Assad regime. And just yesterday, our ambassador to the UN again reinforced Canada's position during a UN Security Council Open Debate on the Middle East.

The fact that the Security Council remains paralyzed more than a year and a half after this crisis began is tragic. As long as tough measures are not taken, those who want to protect the Assad regime with Syrian blood will benefit from the political and legal cover this impasse provides.

Canada actively continues to call upon countries like Russia, which have influence with Syria, to play a more positive role, cooperate with international efforts and use their leverage to help achieve an end to the violence and an inclusive, Syrian-led political transition.

Minister Baird recognizes that this is a central pressure point and uses every available opportunity to raise the issue with his international counterparts, as he did at the APEC summit in Russia. Departmental officials have also raised the situation in Syria numerous times with Russian officials, both here, in Ottawa, and in Moscow. In the absence of a Security Council resolution, Canada continues to work with our regional and international partners to isolate this brutal regime and increase the pressure on it. We closed our embassy in Damascus on March 5, all of Syria's diplomats in Canada were expelled on May 29, and the Canadian government has imposed 10 rounds of tough sanctions on the Assad regime. We are calling on all states outside and, especially, within the region to do the same.

To this end, we co-chaired a meeting of the sanctions working group of the Friends of the Syrian People with the Netherlands and Tunisia on September 20 in The Hague, placing a particular focus on the effective implementation of financial sanctions.

Canada is also committed to helping the non-violent Syrian opposition gain the skills and resources to achieve a free and democratic Syria, including a contribution of up to $1 million for pro-democracy initiatives. The funding was announced on April 1. We are considering additional projects to support the Syrian opposition—both inside and outside Syria—and help it prepare for a post-Assad transition.

In order to help meet urgent humanitarian needs arising from the crisis, Canada, through CIDA, has already provided $12 million in assistance this year. United Nations agencies and the Red Cross are currently delivering it. This support has been directed to address pressing humanitarian needs both inside Syria and in neighbouring countries. Canada will continue to closely monitor the humanitarian situation in Syria and in the region, and stands ready to respond further, as appropriate.

My CIDA colleague joining me today will be pleased to answer any questions you might have about Canada's humanitarian contribution.

As I mentioned earlier, Canada is also extremely concerned about the impact of the conflict on Syria's neighbours. Consequently, during his visit to the Zaatari refugee camp on the Jordan-Syria border in August, Minister Baird announced $6.5 million to assist Jordan in coping with the massive influx of refugees from Syria. Canadian funding will enhance the capacity of the Jordanian Armed Forces to transport refugees efficiently and safely from border crossing points to reception centres and the Zaatari camp in Jordan.

We are also exploring options to provide additional assistance to Jordan, which would include increasing donations to the Jordanian Armed Forces for the transport of refugees and providing protective equipment to the Jordanian Armed Forces to deal with incidents involving Syrian chemical weapons.

We should be under no illusions, and I can assure you, the government is not. The road ahead for Syria will be long and fraught with difficulty, but Canada remains actively engaged in efforts to assist the Syrian people in their struggle for their democratic rights. We will continue to work with them to bring an end to the crisis and to promote stability in the region.

With that, I'll stop here and be happy to respond to your questions.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

9 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Thank you, Mr. Bailey.

We're going to start with Mr. Dewar and Mr. Saganash for seven minutes, please.

9 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you very much.

I want to thank you for coming to the committee today.

I just want to get straight to the questions around the support for the successor to Mr. Kofi Annan, Mr. Brahimi.

You mentioned in your statement that the government supports the efforts of Mr. Brahimi. Is there still continuing financial support for his mission?

9 a.m.

Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

We have not made an additional contribution, to my knowledge. There was a contribution made at the time of the Kofi Annan mission. I'm not sure whether that contribution was entirely used. If it hasn't been, then obviously it would be used to support Mr. Brahimi's mission.

9 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

With regard to Mr. Brahimi's mission right now—which has been difficult, he's admitted that—one of the things he's called on very recently is the idea of a ceasefire that would be aligned with the time of the upcoming Islamic holiday. Has the government taken a position on that?

9 a.m.

Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

On that specific aspect of his proposal, no, we have not, although in general obviously the government remains favourable to a ceasefire, which would then lead to a negotiated solution. I think it would be fair to say that we would be in support of that proposal, but the minister or the government haven't made an explicit statement on his particular proposal, no.

9 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

You mentioned in your statement about the government taking action and Minister Baird taking action to urge Russia to support what we've all been hoping for, a Security Council resolution that would be in line with what we all want to see in condemning the violence in Syria, along with the support of the regime.

Beyond what you've given us here, what specific actions...? Has it just been within meetings that they've urged...? Has it been formal diplomatic notes? Further to your comments, could you give us more detail on what the government's actions have been, specifically with Russia, and anything else you can add in regard to our actions with China?

9 a.m.

Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

As I mentioned in my remarks, this was a topic on the agenda of the bilateral meeting the minister had with his Russian counterpart on the margins of the APEC summit in Russia. There have been other conversations. They see each other, of course, in multilateral meetings—in the G-8 context, in the United Nations, and so on. I can assure you this subject is on the agenda for a good many of those conversations. In addition, we've sent instructions to our embassy in Moscow to go into the foreign ministry at senior levels and raise this topic, repeating the same points, basically. In that regard, obviously we're acting in concert with our allies—the Americans, the British, the French. We're all repeating the same points to the Russians at just about every chance we get.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Is the same to be said about our Prime Minister with regard to President Putin? Have there been direct conversations?

9:05 a.m.

Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

That's my understanding, sir, yes.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Thank you.

Finally, I have a question about sanctions before I turn it over to my colleague. Some of us had concerns that the sanctions early on weren't aligned with others' sanctions, specifically around energy. There were concerns about a Canadian company remaining in Syria. That changed eventually, not because of our sanctions, but because of others' sanctions. I'm just wondering how our sanctions align with those of other nations. Are our sanctions in line with our allies' sanctions, and if they aren't, what differences are there?

9:05 a.m.

Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

Obviously, a number of our measures differ from those of other countries simply because of the nature of our regime and the nature of the laws that Parliament has passed that regulate economic activity in Canada in different ways from those of the U.S., the European Union, or other countries. Our sanctions have to be designed in light of Canadian laws. In terms of the impact and effect of the sanctions, they are quite well-aligned. In fact, they are the most strict. Basically, the effect of our sanctions has been to shut down all trade investment and financial relations. There is no economic activity now between Canada and Syria except with the sorts of things that one can literally carry in a suitcase on an airplane.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

That would be for pre-existing investments as well as a ban on any future investments?

9:05 a.m.

Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

Yes. Financial transactions are completely banned. Even those who want to send money to their families have to apply for a permit. Those permits, of course, are granted quite quickly and easily.

That's just to tell you that you couldn't make an investment in Syria now because you wouldn't be able to move the money to do it.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

I'm just wondering why we initially excluded some of the oil and gas from the original sanction regime.

9:05 a.m.

Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

That would predate my time in the bureau, but my understanding of this is.... The particular investment you are talking about, which was in the Ebla gas project, was actually realized, or at least they were able to get approval to proceed with the project, at the time when I was the ambassador to Syria, so I am familiar with the project. The basic rationale would be that this is not an export project. It does not allow the regime to gain. It doesn't export the gas. Rather, the gas is used to generate electricity for the Syrian electricity grid. That in turn is something that provides comfort and support to the Syrian population. Without it, of course, they would have difficulty lighting their homes, running their appliances, heating their houses, and so on.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Notwithstanding that, though, due to sanctions from the United States, there was an effect of closing down that operation.

9:05 a.m.

Director General, Middle East Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs and International Trade

Mark Bailey

I think it was the European Union.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON

Sorry, I stand corrected.

Thank you very much. I'm going to turn it over to my colleague.

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. Saganash, you have only 30 seconds.

9:05 a.m.

NDP

Romeo Saganash NDP Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC

You've got to be kidding.

Now it's my turn to thank you for being here today.

You mentioned humanitarian aid geared towards the pressing needs in neighbouring countries. Jordan and Turkey, in particular, have made a huge contribution by taking in 210,000 and 100,000 refugees respectively.

What kind of assistance is Canada providing to these countries to help them cope with this influx of Syrian nationals?

9:05 a.m.

Conservative

The Chair Conservative Dean Allison

Mr. Bailey, give just a very quick answer so we can move along. We have to follow—