Foreign Affairs Committee on Dec. 11th, 2012

[Stephen Mooney]

First of all, northerners are a different breed. I think we're a little hardier. Climate change has affected us and we are the contributors to it, so we're taken aback by that, but we have to adapt.

The policy that is coming forward on the Arctic Council does affect northerners. We know that. The northern communities—and I'll speak globally, but regionally they all have different interests. For the northern communities the number one interest, I believe, is their concern about climate change, how the north is changing, and the way they can adapt.

I do believe we're going to adapt, but it's the consequences around that adaptation....

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you very much.

As you probably know, in our government's 2011 Speech from the Throne, the Prime Minister made a statement that Canada's north is a cornerstone of the government's agenda. As part of that, the Canadian Northern Economic Development Agency was created, and also an amount of $40 million was earmarked for scientific research over four years.

I wonder if you could give us your views on that scientific research budget and what you think it can be used for.

[Stephen Mooney]

I have been a recipient, and the Yukon Research Centre has been a recipient, of CanNor's funds.

I think it is necessary. The north is the future for Canada, and that money has gone to some very interesting and great projects that have not only helped northern Canada, but the circumpolar countries.

In terms of the distribution of those funds, I thank CanNor for having a regional office in Whitehorse so that we can deal with them directly. These funds have been spent to good use, and I would like to see more coming to the north, because northerners know what it takes to live up here. We are innovative, and we can develop technologies and innovative ideas and solutions that we can sell globally. That money from CanNor has helped those efforts.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

If you had free rein to design a scientific research study for the north, what would be on your Christmas wish list for scientific research in the north?

[Stephen Mooney]

Everything that I've read about in the blues regarding the witnesses coming up I think is very important. The oil and gas exploration, the alternative energies, are all important, so I can't pick one in general.

But this is where I say that innovation and the knowledge economy.... I think Dr. Karen Barnes will speak to this in the next few hours—about education in the north and the knowledge economy. Keeping that knowledge in the north is a key to the success of the north. Smart people develop smart ideas and keep that economy going. Without the people, you don't have that. The resources will come and go, but those....

To place money, I would say put money in the people. Put money in the north and in the people and we will be successful.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Okay, fair enough. You've certainly outlined for us in your earlier comments some of the interesting scientific research that's being carried on now and some of the interesting innovations that have flowed from that.

As you know, our government has been trying to encourage exploration and development in the north by improving the regulatory systems and also by investing in critical infrastructure to attract investors and developers to the north. Can you describe the current economic climate in your region and in the high Arctic region?

[Stephen Mooney]

In the Yukon, I think we have been very fortunate over the last years. While there is a downturn in the economy in certain areas of the world, the Yukon has been resilient in regard to that, and we have constant growth. We are spoiled up here.

The transfer payments from Ottawa to keep us going are great. I think we've used those well. For our mining regime, our environmental permitting program I think is very receptive to mining. We have a great process of how mining and oil and gas companies can come in and educate the government and the communities on how they want to extract those resources. Under the Yukon socio-economic assessment branch, we have a great process that is very effective.

I can only speak for the Yukon and what I've seen, and working with the mining industry to help solve their problems.... You may have heard, I know, that in the last year the Yukon had a peak year for exploration. It dropped a little this year, but we have five to six mines that are coming on line, and that is not going to stop. The Yukon is the home of some world-class ore bodies that will be extracted over time. I think we are in position to look at innovation and to try to make that footprint smaller.

I'd like to start with a quote that says “I'd like to close the mine before it opens.” By that, I mean working with the mining companies to look at how we are going to abandon that mine before they drop the shovel to start digging.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to turn it over to Mr. Eyking, please, for seven minutes.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our guests.

I'm going to start off with you, James. It's a very interesting conversation that you've had with us here. On your statements on the importance of us chairing the Arctic Council, that has been noted by many of our witnesses. Many of our witnesses so far recommend that we don't use it as a bit of soapbox, that we don't be self-promoting, and that we're not divisive there, but that we unite other countries. Also, you recommended inclusiveness, which is very important, so that we bring people into the tent.

That being said, if China is going to be brought into the tent more, China is going to be one of the biggest polluters, especially with the coal-fired plants. A lot of the dust particles go up to the north. That's going to have even more effect on it, so not only might they see the opportunities in being in the Arctic Council, but I think we're going to have to encourage them to see that they have a responsibility.

My first question deals with new protocols. There are many in place now, such as the 200-mile limit for fisheries. There are some international laws out there, I guess, like the sea laws. Do you see Canada maybe taking the lead in the next couple of years in setting up new protocols dealing especially with transportation in the Arctic and with fisheries? Do you see Canada taking the lead on pushing for new protocols in that area?

[Dr. James Manicom]

That's a good question.

Obviously, I think, the chairmanship at the Arctic Council provides that opportunity. As a function of the Arctic Council and the way it works, the way international law works, and the way the other institutions I mentioned work—the International Maritime Organization in particular—there's very little we can do on our own. If we're going to set new protocols, they need to be done in consultation with the countries that are going to follow those rules.

Some of the Chinese I spoke to simply stated that China is not going to follow rules that it wasn't invited to write. That's partly a function of a general.... The Chinese government does view the international system as one that it did not make, right? It has been emerging into the world over the last 30 years. It's learning the rules. It's following most of the rules. It's changing some of the rules. They are very cognizant of who writes the rules. They want to help make those rules.

I concede that they have responsibilities that they need to be more aware of, particularly on pollution, but if we try to hand them something a fait accompli, they'll simply ignore it. The scale of what I suspect they will be trying to achieve up there will be such that if they ignore it, the rules won't be worth the paper they're printed on, if they're printed at all.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

I have a second question. I think you alluded to Korea and Japan being more interested in the Antarctic. What's the deal down there?

[Dr. James Manicom]

They're all more interested. I suppose they all have longer scientific research histories in the Antarctic than they do in the Arctic. They all signed the Treaty of Svalbard when it came up in the 1920s and 1930s. China signed as the Republic of China, and that was one of the treaties that the People's Republic of China kept when they took over from the Republic of China when it went to Taiwan.

They all have different interests. Korea is one of the leading countries in the world on meteorite research, and 85% of the world's meteorites hit the Antarctic. Japan and China are both there, again on polar research questions. I'm not a physical scientist; I can't comment on what the nature of the research is. But if you look at the numbers, that is where their money is allocated.

I think they would argue that experience has given them expertise, and capacity in particular—icebreaker capacity is the easiest example—to do things in the Arctic. The Japanese are particularly adamant about this. They argue that they were the first of the East Asian countries in the Antarctic; they were the first of the East Asian countries into the Arctic. They have expressed particular sensitivity at being lumped in with these other countries because they perceive themselves to have earned more than that.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

A recent book I read is called China 1421.

I don't know if you have ever read it.

[Dr. James Manicom]

No.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

It states that China, in 1421, went all around the Americas, all the way up into the Arctic.

[Dr. James Manicom]

Jeepers.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Anyway, if you haven't read it, I would suggest you read it.

[Dr. James Manicom]

Thank you.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

My next question will go over to Mr. Mooney, in the Yukon.

Are there many resources in the Yukon?

We often talk about Alberta and the prairie provinces and a lot of the other Arctic areas having tremendous resources. What are the big resources in the Yukon that have potential? I know there's gold there, but where's the—

[Stephen Mooney]

It started with the gold rush in 1898. There was $40 million of placer gold a year that was taken out of the Yukon.

The biggest resources are the mineral resources. West of Dawson City is a new goldfield discovery. This is hard rock, not quartz mining. The Snake River has one of the world's largest deposits of iron ore. There's a large coal deposit just south of that. With regard to tungsten and platinum palladium, the Yukon has quite a few.... We have an active copper mine. We have an active lead-zinc mine. There's a new copper mine coming on, with a heap leaching gold deposit as well.

[Mark Eyking, Liberal, Sydney—Victoria, NS]

Thank you.

I'm a vegetable farmer from Cape Breton. We have a challenge growing vegetables there. You mentioned you're growing crops in your neck of the woods, and I guess with climate change...what are some of the things you're finding? What crops are there, and how are you going to grow them?

I know you have hot summers, but—

[Stephen Mooney]

Exactly.

During the gold rush, in a town of 40,000 at the turn of the century, they fed the people of Dawson from the local fields with large cabbages, things like that.

Where we're focusing our research is on greenhousing. We've built a year-round greenhouse that's off grid. When people from down south think of agriculture.... We do not have the agricultural land that Saskatchewan, Alberta, and the Prairies have. We just do not.

But there are frost-free days. In Dawson it used to be that if a placer miner got almost 100 frost-free days, he was a happy guy. Now they're getting 120, 130 days. So climate change is affecting us. Our shoulder seasons are getting longer. We believe that around our food security in the modern era, not hunting caribou and moose and picking berries, but our technology, we will be able to extend the shoulder seasons using greenhouse technology.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Mr. Mooney.

We're now going to start our second round, which will be for five minutes for questions and answers. I think we have time for one intervention from two members.

We'll start with Mr. Van Kesteren, and then Ms. Grewal.

[Dave Van Kesteren, Conservative, Chatham-Kent—Essex, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you all for being here this morning.

I want to go to Mr. Manicom.

You spoke about China and you touched on their interest in fishing in the Arctic. I think a lot of us—I think most of us—are concerned about that. All of our oceans are fragile, but I'd have to think that Arctic waters must really have some challenges as far as bringing back stocks.

Do the Chinese recognize that? If and when the ice starts to break up so that commercial fishing can really expand in the north, is there an understanding by the Chinese and the Koreans of the ecology of our Arctic waters? Is there much work being done at the international level to set some rules and guidelines for that possibility of expansion of fishing?

[Dr. James Manicom]

That's a good question. I'd be speculating on just what their knowledge of the ecology of the Arctic is. They're all literate in Arctic research, and if there's collaborative science being done, I'm sure they're part of it.

As to what's being done at the global level, as far as I know, there's not a great deal. I think the silver bullet people talk about is setting up a regional fisheries management organization and having a moratorium. I know that in the United States they have had differences of opinion on moratoriums.

It's the coastal states that will have to lead efforts to limit Arctic fishing. The way to do that is to use the agreement on straddling fish stocks to try to push coastal state jurisdiction farther out beyond our EEZ, which of course we have done off the coast of Newfoundland and in other areas as well.

We are a member of I think four or five of these different agreements. In many of these regional fisheries management organizations in which we are a party, Japan, South Korea, and in many cases China are also members. So there is already a dialogue ongoing with these countries, at least on fisheries management.

That's certainly the place to start.