Foreign Affairs Committee on Jan. 31st, 2013

[Jack Harris, NDP, St. John's East, NL]

That's fine. I just want the kind of assurance that I think Canadians want, that our diplomats, for example, are protected. I know the kind of close personnel protection that we've seen in other countries, and it appears to be necessary there.

The other question that has arisen in the overall context of the arming of the AQIM group has been around arms from Libya. Not all of them escaped after the conflict in Libya, but I know Canada was involved in arms control in Libya and contributed $10 million to assist with arms control in October 2011.

Perhaps you're not the one to answer this one, General Vance, but there are concerns about whether this $10 million that we contributed provided any assistance or did any good. What can be said about that?

[MGen Jonathan Vance]

Mr. Chair, if I may, I should hand this to Ms. Buck.

[Kerry Buck]

We did spend a significant sum in Libya to help to secure weapons of mass destruction-related materials as well as conventional weapons. For weapons of mass destruction-related materials, there was $7.5 million, including $6 million to the OPCW, the Organisation for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons, to support destruction of weapons of mass destruction, training for Libyan personnel operating the destruction facility, etc.

It's more conventional weapons flowing out and into the Sahel that have been the concern. We did devote just under $2 million to disable and clear MANPADS, which are shoulder-launched surface-to-air missiles, and other conventional weapons in Libya. We did that with the U.S. and other partners. The situation on the ground in Libya is a difficult programming environment still, as you can understand, but working with allies we have been able to clear and destroy a number of MANPADS and other conventional weapons in Libya. During the time of the fighting in Libya, there was an outflow of arms, and as I said, there was an outflow of arms prior to that.

AQIM has been well stocked for a while. No doubt it was increased post-Libya, but they've been well stocked for the last few years.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We have one more round.

We'll have Mr. Williamson finish off this round, for five minutes, sir.

[John Williamson, Conservative, New Brunswick Southwest, NB]

Thank you.

This question is directed, at least initially, to Mr. Morrison.

Just as a back-of-the-envelope calculation, it looks like the Government of Canada has spent upwards of half a billion dollars on aid to Mali since 2007. As I look at what's happening on the ground there, and I'm aware from testimony today and elsewhere how those expenditures have helped the population, I do kind of step back and look at the security situation, the collapse of the armed forces, the coup d'état, and of course insurgents who have now come in from elsewhere in the region and perhaps elsewhere in the world.

I'm not asking you to second-guess how that money was spent, but going forward—and Ms. Buck, you're welcome to hop in here as well—I wonder if, as part of CIDA's evaluation, Canada has to do a better job of looking at the security on the ground, whether it's military or police, in countries where we're investing significant tax dollars to ensure that if we're spending money on civil society, education, and health outcomes, the government itself is able to protect its borders and its population so we don't have a situation like there is now.

I recognize there are a lot of factors here, particularly insurgents, but is that taken into consideration? Going forward does that have to be a greater part of the evaluation in countries not only in Africa but around the world to ensure that as moneys are invested, institutions are going to be there for the medium and long term?

[David Morrison]

Thank you very much.

It's a good question and I'll ask Kerry to speak to just how rapidly this came on as a security threat. That has to be a key part of the answer.

Other components are that, as I said in my remarks, 90% of the people live in the south. I think all donors have been aware of the situation in the north, but they've been focusing on the good work that could still be done in the south. That certainly has been CIDA's posture.

We need to take into account that Mali was a democratic country until very recently. It was also a country that was making, by broad consensus within the international community, the right choices for the development of its people. Canada has invested significantly there, but if I might say about the areas in which we've invested, which I mentioned in my opening remarks, health care and education, those are investments that are going to pay off for a lifetime for Malians.

If you're talking about inoculating children, that has to be done in the first year of life. If you're talking about textbooks that will allow kids to learn while they're in school, and also the kinds of support that will allow schools to stay open, those are investments that will pay off for the people of Mali.

Looking at the holistic sense of the country and whether anyone missed anything on the security grounds, as I said, I think it came on very quickly. Despite all that's happened I think our investments in the south have been well made and will continue to pay dividends well into the future.

Kerry.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Ms. Buck, you have about a minute, but go ahead.

[Kerry Buck]

We have been doing a lot over the last few years.

Since about 2006 we have really upped our game on training in the security sector to build capacity. We've trained African police, African civilians who work in the security sector, and African military.

I'll give you two examples. Through the Global Peace and Security Fund, we have trained police who are in the ECOWAS standby force, so many of them will end up being deployed through AFISMA. We have trained them in improving their capacity to look at issues of sexual violence, to respond to them, and to prevent them. That's just one small example. I have a raft of them. I won't get into all of them.

The second example is counterterrorism training. We have undertaken military training with some African armed forces on international counterterrorism but also on respect for international humanitarian law and how to protect civilians, and also on sexual violence issues. We have a number of programs to get at the civilian police and military arms of the security sector to build their capacity. We did some of that in Mali prior to the coup, as well.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move back to Madam Péclet for the last round. You have five minutes, please.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Good afternoon. I want to thank our witnesses very much.

I will begin by asking a fairly general question about the humanitarian situation.

Several cases of major violation have been reported, especially with regards to human rights, the use of child soldiers and sexual violence. Some media have published brief reports on that.

Do you have any other reports? Has anyone on the ground mentioned similar cases of violation?

[Kerry Buck]

I'll answer on the reports we have.

We regularly look at a number of sources of reports when there are human rights concerns being raised. We have reports on human rights issues, obviously, from our embassies in the region, in Bamako, but we also look at reports by Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, the United Nations human rights mechanisms, etc. For instance, Canada intervened on Tuesday in Geneva on the situation of human rights in Mali.

We look at a lot of information sources, as do you. You're quite right: the violations or the issues of child soldiers and general abuses against kids and women have been bad over the last while.

Les, do you want to speak to some of the humanitarian funding we have?

[Leslie Norton]

I'll add very briefly that as part of the coordination mechanisms that are set up in country to respond to the humanitarian situation, they set up what we call a protection cluster. All of the actors who address protection concerns come together around a table and share information but also speak to how they're addressing these concerns.

With regard to sexual and gender-based violence, for instance, some of our partners are undertaking health interventions. In their health interventions, while they're not specific to SGBV, sexual and gender-based violence, they will of course be well aware that this is an issue, and they will address it as it comes up. As well, in the refugee camps where our partners are, the High Commissioner for Refugees, as well as UNICEF, both inside and outside the country, they're also very attuned to this issue in responding.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

Maybe you can talk about the situation of the refugees right now and what Canada is doing. Maybe you have updates for us.

[Leslie Norton]

Yes, with pleasure.

The numbers we have as of today are that there are 159,647 refugees residing in Burkina Faso, Niger, and Mauritania. There's also a small number in Algeria. The numbers have increased somewhat since the beginning of the conflict on January 10. There are about 15,000 more refugees since that time. The UN has launched an appeal in order to address the regional dimensions of this crisis, which means to help address the refugee situation per se.

I would point out a couple of things. Part of the Canadian support is to help address the refugee situation. I think everyone is aware that Minister Fantino visited the refugee camp in northern Burkina Faso in September. He heard the refugees' concerns. Predominantly, they want to go home. At this time, while there is an outflow of refugees, there is in fact a lot of will to return.

The refugees are being provided with protection and assistance by the High Commissioner for Refugees. The World Food Programme is providing food. UNICEF and other actors are also in the camp meeting their needs.

[Ève Péclet, NDP, La Pointe-de-l'Île, QC]

My last question is about human rights violations. We know, for instance, that France has asked that observers be sent to Mali to monitor the situation and help avoid cases of abuse.

What is Canada doing in terms of that?

[Kerry Buck]

As I said, we have spoken out about our concern about human rights abuses and will continue to do so. We'll continue to monitor the situation very, very closely.

If your specific question is about the human rights monitors as called for by the French, we are currently considering what further assistance Canada will be providing across a range of potential interventions. I won't pronounce on whether we'll participate in that particular effort. I do know that the UN has human rights experts in field and in the past has sent in human rights expert missions to monitor the human rights situation, and will be reporting out this March, I believe, back to the UN Secretary-General, on their findings on human rights.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Ms. Buck.

Thank you, Madame Péclet.

We'll finish up with Mr. Schellenberger. Then, as I assume we have some more time, we'll determine who wants to go back and forth for some additional questions, maybe for the next 15 minutes. We'll wrap it up at around quarter to one so that we can do a little committee business and discuss further meetings.

Mr. Schellenberger for five minutes, please.

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for being here this morning.

Can you explain the role the African Union and the Economic Community of West African States are playing in the conflict? How important is it to have regional actors taking a leadership role?

[Kerry Buck]

Before I pass this to my colleague, Pat Malikail, I will just say it's absolutely crucial that there be an African response to an African crisis. The African Union and ECOWAS have taken a leadership role, not only in supplying many more troops than originally had been envisaged but also in pledging financial support.

Pat will talk about their—

[Gary Schellenberger, Conservative, Perth—Wellington, ON]

Even to what you have just said, it's been reported that the French have said that when they leave, and they've said they're going to leave as quickly as they can, they will turn things over to the African forces. I've heard that the Malians do not want the African forces to take over from the French.

Do you have any idea if this is true? If it is, why don't they want the help from their neighbours?

[Kerry Buck]

The Malian government was part of discussions about what ECOWAS would be contributing. It's already happening that the French and the Malian troops are pushing forward, and coming in behind are AFISMA and troops from Chad. Chad is not technically part of AFISMA, but they have significant troop strength there. They're already moving in behind to hold some of the cities that have been taken back by the Malian and French forces.

AFISMA is already working on the ground. The Africans really have stepped up to the plate in terms of troop numbers, even financial contributions, as I've said, and real leadership.

[Patricia Malikail]

It's a really interesting question, because there are different layers of organizations working in Mali. ECOWAS, which is the group of west African states—it's one of the regional economic communities of the African Union, so it's a subset of the African Union—sent a very strong signal immediately after the March coup by saying that coups were unacceptable. They sent a very strong signal saying that there should be a return to constitutional rule, and if there wasn't one, they would impose certain sanctions.

This was a welcome move by ECOWAS. The international community appreciated it. That's one of the reasons we have now an interim government in Mali that follows the constitutional rule.

ECOWAS continued to play a very strong role, saying that they as a community would be willing to go to Mali not only to deal with the threat in the north but also to stabilize institutions in the south. That went along, and the AU was certainly behind it, and it led, in December, to the authorization of the deployment of the African-led international support mission in Mali.

Let's talk a little about what is AFISMA, which was authorized by the UN. AFISMA was asked to be in place for an initial period of one year to contribute to rebuilding the capacity of the Malian defence and armed forces. It has a domestic component. It was to support Malian authorities in recovering areas in the north under the control of terrorists. Now that's happening with the help of the French.

It was also supposed to help the transition to stabilization activities to support Malian authorities maintain security and consolidate state authority—the political track of what's happening in Mali. It was also supposed to help Malian authorities create a secure environment for civilian-led delivery of humanitarian assistance and the voluntary return of internally displaced persons and refugees. This is all part of the package.

The pledging conference that was just held under the auspices of the African Union on Tuesday, January 29, had a quite remarkable response from the international community, from ECOWAS, but also African Union countries that aren't part of ECOWAS, such as Chad.

I think there are different layers of work here. The important thing to take away from it is that there's real coordination between ECOWAS, what's happening at the next level up with the African Union, and also what will happen in the United Nations.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, and thank you, Mr. Schellenberger.

We'll start with Mr. Dewar. We'll go to Mr. Dechert, and we'll finish off with a quick question by Mr. McKay. Then we'll wrap up and go in camera to discuss committee business and what we're going to do on Mali over the next week or so.

I will turn it over to Mr. Dewar for five minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Is the government going to be participating in the upcoming EU meeting in Brussels on February 5? I am assuming they are going to participate, but I want to know if we are going to have political representation there. Is the minister intending to attend?

[Kerry Buck]

We just received the invitation to the Brussels meeting. I can say that Canada will be participating in the Brussels meeting, but we haven't decided at what level yet.