Foreign Affairs Committee on Feb. 12th, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Pursuant to Standing Order 108(2), our briefing on the situation in Mali will start.

I want to extend greetings to our witnesses today for being here and for once again coming on such short notice.

We have Mr. Chris Rosene, who is director of development programs, international, for the Canadian Red Cross.

Welcome, sir. You'll be starting off for us.

We also have Stéphane Michaud, senior manager of emergency response for international operations.

Welcome to you, sir, as well.

From the International Committee of the Red Cross, we have Robert Young, who is a senior delegate.

Mr. Young, welcome to you.

Last but not least, as an individual we have Mr. Robert Fowler, who is a senior fellow of the Graduate School of Public and International Affairs of the University of Ottawa and a long-time member of our foreign service.

Welcome. I'm glad to have you here as well, sir.

Mr. Rosene, why don't we start with you?

I believe you have anywhere from eight to ten minutes for a presentation. We'll have all the presentations, and then we'll go back and forth to the witnesses over the next hour, for the members to ask questions.

Thank you once again for being here.

We'll turn the floor over to you, Mr. Rosene. We look forward to your testimony.

[Chris Rosene, Director, Development Programs, International, Canadian Red Cross]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thanks very much for giving the Canadian Red Cross an opportunity to address the committee today.

My name is Chris Rosene, director for development programs in the international operations division of the Canadian Red Cross.

I'm here today with my colleague, Stéphane Michaud, who just returned from a four-month mission in Mali in September. Stéphane will be available to answer questions as well.

Before I turn it over to Robert Young of the International Committee of the Red Cross, I will focus on three key points: the importance of investing in long-term development activities; the unique capacity of the Mali Red Cross; and our plans moving forward.

Allow me to give committee members some background on our long-term development activities in Mali. We feel it is important to highlight these because the Canadian Red Cross has had a longstanding experience and history of working in Mali dating back to 1986, and a partnership with the Mali Red Cross. These programs are made possible thanks to the generosity of the Government of Canada and the Canadian public.

As the conflict unfolds in Mali, the Canadian Red Cross stands with our partner, the Mali Red Cross, during these difficult times, and we will be there to continue to support them when the conflict ends. It's important for us to keep in mind that this type of longer-term work will help us stay the course and will have an impact on saving lives, and hopefully reduce the humanitarian impact should further tensions arise.

Examples of the long-term work include development programs that improve the health of women and children, such as malaria prevention and vaccination campaigns. In 2007, the Canadian Red Cross, through support from the Canadian government and public donations, worked with the Mali Red Cross and the Mali Ministry of Health to deliver 1.8 million mosquito bed nets as part of an integrated child survival campaign that also provided measles and polio vaccinations and other medication to over 2.8 million children under five.

Core to our mandate of preparing for and responding to disasters, in 2009 we started a five-year program to build the capacity of the Mali Red Cross to respond to emergencies and to improve service delivery and community-based programs in four regions of Mali.

Since 2011, our work in Mali has continued to focus on maternal and child health programs through to 2014. These health programs will ensure that life-saving interventions are delivered to address critical childhood illness and will reach a further 875,000 people, including more than 150,000 children under five. These efforts continue to progress despite the conflict.

We are also responding to the current food security crisis that is taking place in parallel with the conflict in Mali and the other nations of the Sahel region. The Canadian Red Cross is supporting Canadian experts in-country to reinforce the Mali Red Cross management of the food crisis.

I would like to emphasize the important role of the Mali Red Cross during this current crisis. The Mali Red Cross was founded in 1965 by an act of its government as an auxiliary to the public authorities. It has been fulfilling this mandate particularly in the areas of disaster response and in training of nurses and first aid. It currently has a network of 7,500 volunteers, which allows it to have a vast reach across the country, including in the north, in transition areas like Mopti and Timbuktu. Responding to conflict and other parallel issues is not unlike the situation faced by other national societies in this same region, including Liberia, Sierra Leone, and Côte d'Ivoire, who have all played crucial roles in times of crisis.

In addition, the Mali Red Cross will have a vital role to play post-conflict. It will be very important not to lose sight of the remaining needs once the conflict ends, be it in relation to food security or recovery activities to rebuild the country. The Canadian Red Cross stands ready to continue this capacity-building work with the Mali Red Cross.

To conclude, Mr. Chair, the Red Cross/Red Crescent movement is able to have a wide range of coordinated activities in Mali and in the region. Canadian support has allowed for a building of local capacity, thus strengthening their ability to respond to multiple issues: conflict, food crises, and health needs.

Unfortunately, we anticipate that humanitarian needs will continue in the coming months. At the Canadian Red Cross it is our job to plan for the worst and be prepared for the unexpected. We have made contingency plans accordingly, including plans to support the Mali Red Cross in its current and post-conflict activities.

I'd now like to turn it over to Robert Young of the International Committee of the Canadian Red Cross before we take questions.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Young.

[Robert Young, Senior Delegate, International Committee of the Red Cross]

Mr. Chair, I want to start by thanking the committee for inviting the International Committee of the Red Cross, or ICRC, to appear.

I'm Robert Young, the ICRC's representative in Ottawa, part of our regional delegation for Canada and the U.S.

My remarks today will focus on the serious humanitarian situation in Mali in relation to the armed conflict and the ICRC's operational response as part of the International Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement. Within this movement, as you know, the ICRC is most active in situations of armed conflict and is closely associated with international human law, IHL, with our unique role recognized in the Geneva Conventions.

Let me first express the ICRC's sincere thanks to the Government of Canada for ongoing financial support for our work in Mali in particular, including the $2 million announced recently in Addis Ababa. This kind of support allows the ICRC to carry out our mandate, entrusted to us by states as a neutral, impartial, and independent humanitarian actor in armed conflict and other situations of violence.

As you know, the structure of the conflict in Mali has changed significantly in recent weeks with the involvement of other countries. The Malian and allied armies to a great extent control the cities of Gao, Timbuktu, and Kidal, where the ICRC continues to be present and operating. From the humanitarian and security standpoints, the situation is critical. The conflict is not over.

In all conflicts around the world where ICRC operates, we seek to establish dialogue with all of the parties involved. This includes confidential dialogue to promote respect for humanitarian law and to discuss alleged violations of IHL. This is the case in Mali, where the ICRC has been present since 1982, and where we've increased our operations over the last 30 months. Since the conflict began in January 2012, we've been explaining our strictly humanitarian mandate to government forces and armed groups alike throughout Mali. This dialogue has been essential to the acceptance of the ICRC by all of the various parties, helping to ensure our continued access through all regions of Mali. Today we have 100 staff across Mali, based in offices in Bamako, Gao, Timbuktu, Kidal, and Mopti.

Throughout the conflict, and to date, the ICRC has been granted access to all of these key centres, as well as to the remote rural areas around them, where few organizations have access. We have managed to maintain staff presence in the north, with some minor interruptions. This has ensured our access to the most vulnerable people in the Gao, Kidal, Timbuktu, and Mopti regions, providing them with food and other essential aid, in cooperation with the Mali Red Cross, with whom we work closely.

My colleague from the Canadian Red Cross has explained the important role of the Mali Red Cross, and I won't elaborate here.

Our own operations in Mali are backed by our regional delegation in Niamey, Niger, where we also work closely with the Niger Red Cross, which is also responding to the crisis in Mali.

Beyond the food assistance to more than 700,000 people we have provided to date, I'd like to give you a few snapshots of some of our ongoing action in Mali. Last year, we visited hundreds of persons detained in relation to the armed conflict in Mali. This included more than 150 people detained by the Malian security forces, as well as more than 80 government soldiers in the hands of various armed groups in the north. We carried out 41 prison visits to 20 detention places, where we met over 3,500 detainees. We facilitated humanitarian contacts between hundreds of family members separated by the conflict through Red Cross messages and through phone calls.

To promote humanitarian law, last year we briefed more than 600 members of armed forces and armed groups in Mali. We continue these activities with the international military forces who have arrived and are continuing to arrive for deployment in Mali. Last week, for example, we briefed Malian forces in Mopti, with over 200 soldiers and officers involved in military operations.

In the three main towns in the north, the ICRC is providing diesel to keep water pumping stations working and fresh water running. In Gao alone, thousands of kilograms of chlorine were supplied to the water treatment plant. Also in Gao, the ICRC is providing a seven-person medical and surgical team and medical supplies. We also support nine health centres in smaller centres in the north.

To conclude, the Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, including the ICRC, expects there will be pressing humanitarian needs in Mali in coming months. The ICRC, together with the Mali Red Cross, will respond to the assistance and protection needs of the population, especially in the north, where vulnerability is high. The ICRC will continue to seek access to all persons detained in the conflict on all sides of the conflict.

The ICRC and the Mali Red Cross will continue to closely coordinate our efforts within the Red Cross and Red Crescent Movement, and also with the UN and international community, to best respond to the needs of the people of Mali in their time of crisis.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Young.

We're now going to turn it over to Mr. Fowler.

Sir, you have 10 minutes.

[Robert Fowler, Senior Fellow, Graduate School of Public and International Affairs, University of Ottawa, As an Individual]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chairman. What a pleasure it is to be here among you this morning.

I had sort of a dog-and-pony show to present to you, with maps, photographs, personalities, and video clips. When the House of Commons reaches the technical level of most Canadian high schools, then such things ought to be possible.

What I'm going to do instead is talk to you—now that I've figured out what I'm going to say—and at a couple of points I'd like to play the sound of the two video clips that I was going to show you. I understand that Miriam will make available to members the links to these clips so that you can see them live.

In order to explain why Canada ought to be significantly more engaged in the situation in Mali, and across the Sahel more generally—significantly more than we have been—I'm going to have to tell you a little about why I think that and what kind of a threat I think is happening in that region presents to Canada and to Europe, to our allies, and above all to our longstanding African friends.

Roughly half a billion Africans live in that upper half of Africa, and they are, I believe, in significant peril from the Islamist threat.

When I speak of these guys...I would show you pictures, but they.... I'm rather surprised to find pictures on the Internet of my captors, principally the person you're going to hear from, “Omar One”, the guy who grabbed Louis and me by the road outside of Niamey on December 14, 2008. He's now a big deal in AQIM and Ansar Dine, and you see him very often on the Internet.

He explains very clearly what are his objectives. They are the most focused group of individuals I've ever seen. Of course, I only met 31 of them. I spent nearly five months with 31 of them, but most of my time was spent talking to a very few of them.

They're not like any soldiers I've ever seen before. They're not like any western young men I've seen before. They are dressed in rags. They take great care of their rather ancient sixties-style Soviet weaponry. There's great talk about all the money they have earned from ransoms and from illegal activities, but I saw no sign of material interest or consumption. They're not wearing cool sunglasses or coveting MP3 players.

They are anxious to get to paradise as expeditiously as possible. Indeed, at one point deep into our saga we were stuck in the sand, and my captor of the moment stripped his AK off his shoulder, thrust it in my face, and said “Kill me now. I’m ready for paradise.” They are a very focused people.

They believe, absolutely, that jihad is the sixth pillar of Islam, and that if they die fighting God's fight, they will get to paradise; they will be beside those rivers of milk and honey. That is where they want to be. They believe the Prophet told them that 99 out of 100 would not pass, but if they die in God's struggle, they will. And they don't care how long it takes. It is, for them, God's time. He will decide when victory will be theirs. But because it's His fight, it will be theirs. Whether it takes 20 years or 20,000 years, it doesn't matter. They will be beside those rivers of milk and honey.

The head of the unit of al-Qaeda that took us in the Islamic Maghreb, I found out after I got out, was Mokhtar Belmokhtar. He is, of course, the guy who perpetrated the horror at the In Amenas liquefied natural gas facility in Algeria two weeks ago, killing 37 foreign workers there. He is an extremely focused person. We will hear more from him over the coming weeks and months.

He has one eye. Louis and I gave names to them all. Belmokhtar became Jack, as in one-eyed jacks. Jack made it very clear that he was part of a much larger operation. He had been fighting for 20 years in Salafist outfits going back to 1992. They attacked targets in Algeria every week, sometimes many times a week. Eighteen months ago, they did 31 attacks in a period of six weeks. It is a constant thing. Two hundred thousand people have been killed in Algeria over that time.

There's big debate about whether they're bandits or hoods or Robin Hood. Belmokhtar is called the Marlboro Man. I am certain he indulges in all kinds of smuggling. But are they bandits flying a flag of Islamic convenience or rather are they latter-day Robin Hoods doing a little banditry to nourish the cause? There is no doubt in my mind it's the second. Are they linked up with other Salafist organizations, such as Boko Haram in Nigeria, al-Shabab in Somalia? Of course, they are linked up. One of my captors was a kid from Kano in northern Nigeria, and he was what we would call an exchange officer. Yes, they are linked up.

The Secretary-General of the UN was talking about Boko Haram fighters flowing into northern Mali last August. They have close connections with al-Shabab.

If I can work this, I'll see if I can have Omar tell you what their objectives are.

[Transcription of video presentation ]

I am going to speak.

This message is for France, the United States and all NATO countries to tell them that the mujahedeen are ready to strike at any time. We are not here to control cities. We are here to wage jihad, to spread the word of the Prophet Muhammad, may Allah honour him and may peace be upon him. We came here without consulting them and we won't consult them when we leave. We came in the name of there is no god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God. We are ready to defend religion until our last breath. We are ready to fight France, the United States, all NATO countries.

We believe that all their might is but a spider web. How can they threaten us with a spider web? You threaten us with the other wish, martyrdom. We have to live as good Muslims, as good followers of the faith, or die as martyrs.

Today, they sent a surveillance and reconnaissance plan. It was flying at a low altitude, and we struck back. When we did, the plane flew off at a very high altitude. It circled the skies 14 times and came back. We are ready. We know they are spy planes, planes that are taking pictures.

But tell them we are on the ground. As soon as they come, we'll come out and wait for them on the ground. We aren't here for a comfortable life or air conditioning. We came to defend religion, Islam, and we will fight to our last breath. And even if they don't come here, as soon as we conquer France, we'll go to the United States, we'll go to London, we'll go to France. We will conquer the entire world. The flag of there is no god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God will be flown from dawn to dusk.

Peace be upon you and the mercy of God.

That's the guy who captured us and those are his objectives.

They told us repeatedly that they wish to turn the region from Nouakchott in Mauritania to Mogadishu on the Indian Ocean in Somalia into one vast, chaotic, seething chaos. They believe that in that chaos their jihad will thrive. As you heard him say, “First that, then us”, and they make that very clear.

In my belief, no Canadian in this zone is safe. No westerner in this zone is safe. They are extremely serious players. They have been given a taste of victory in Mali. They will prosecute it. The French have been very successful with their incredibly timely action. They have pushed them now into a sort of classic insurgency guerrilla warfare. We've seen them hitting in Gao and Kidal in the last couple of days, and they will continue to do that. Remember that time is on their side, and they will try to draw it all out and draw us into another Afghanistan. I don't think it is another Afghanistan as long as we make very certain that it isn't another Afghanistan and we don't make the same mistakes we made in Afghanistan.

Mr. Chairman, I believe that Canada has great friends in that region who we have nurtured over decades. We ought to be protecting and helping those friends and helping our French allies diminish this menace to the point that the Africans, the Malian army, and the African force can deal with them.

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Fowler.

We're going to turn it over to the opposition.

Mr. Dewar, you have seven minutes, please.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair, and thank you to our guests for appearing before the committee today.

Mr. Fowler, I'm going to start with you. You have a lot of experience as a diplomat and you have unique experience on the ground in Mali and certainly in Niger. Has the government, Minister Baird or anyone, called you for a meeting to seek your advice?

[Robert Fowler]

Mr. Baird has not sought my advice. I have had chats with other people in the government, particularly shortly after I came back.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you.

You mentioned the regional context, and certainly that chilling audio you shared with us shows very clearly what their vision is. This is not just about Mali, as you have underlined; it's really about the region. When we're talking about how we deal with a situation as complex as this, do you believe we need to have a strong presence in the region?

Just to give people an understanding of what Canada's presence is right now, we have closed missions and embassies in Africa recently. Right now our coverage in Africa is less than 40% of the region. To give people a comparison, Brazil has more than 50% coverage in Africa, diplomatically speaking. The French have 90%.

When we talk about the long term, you're giving us a vision: this isn't going to be something we solve overnight. I believe that's what you're underscoring here. If we're going to help to stabilize and help the people in the region, if we're going to help our allies and the African people and build long-term peace and stability there, how will this reduction that we've seen in the diplomatic footprint and resources impact on our efforts to do that work?

In other words, in your opinion, should we reverse this trend of investment in diplomacy and resources on the ground in the region?

[Robert Fowler]

Mr. Dewar, I think you're asking a shoe salesman if he'd like to have more shoe stores.

Yes. I think the Brazilians had 11 embassies among the 54 countries of Africa 15 years ago, and today they have 31. What do they know that we don't know? I don't know. If you took that through many other countries, you'd find the same trend.

We're going in a counter-trend direction. I don't know why we are. I know life is tough and budgets are tight and we can do things smarter, but yes, I believe Canada has interests to protect and project. We haven't been doing much of that lately.

I hear constant stories about reduction in facilities, embassies, budgets, people. The last house I lived in as a diplomat was a lovely house in Rome that we bought for a song—not with our money. The Italians had to pay us reparations because we won and they didn't, and therefore we used that money to buy a residence. That residence was paid for with the blood of 6,000 Canadian soldiers. I'm told we're now selling that house. Does that make sense? Hell, no.

So, yes, I do think the budgets of the Department of Foreign Affairs ought to be restored. We have things to say in the world and we ought to be back saying them.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

This decline didn't happen yesterday. We've seen the steady decline in the investment in Canadian diplomacy.

I'd like to get from you what you think we should be investing in strategically in this region. One of the things we are trying to do at this committee is to advise the government how to deal with this situation. We believe on this side that it's not something that you can do with drive-by diplomacy. You have to invest in it.

Strategically, what advice would you give government as to what they should be investing in, perhaps reinvesting in, when it comes to our diplomatic footprint in Africa?

[Robert Fowler]

First of all, we were big investors in Mali and have been for ages. Before the coup in Mali we were spending somewhat over $100 million a year in development assistance. Understandably, we reduced that when confusion reigned in Bamako. A couple of weeks ago we pledged $13 million to assist Mali, from a humanitarian point of view, in this crisis, which by my calculation was 2.8% of the moneys pledged in Addis Ababa at that conference. Do I think that's enough? No, of course, I don't think that's enough.

I also hope I made very clear in my testimony that I think we ought to be assisting militarily. I also cautioned about confusing the two—that is, development assistance and military assistance—because that's what we did in Afghanistan and that's what got us into all the trouble. What I think we should be doing.... There is nothing to negotiate with these al-Qaeda guys—nothing. They will not negotiate, and I guarantee, Mr. Chairman, if they were sitting here they would agree with me. They don't want to negotiate; they want everything. If we're prepared to give them everything, they'll be satisfied. Anything short of that is not enough.

Therefore, we have to hurt them. We have to diminish them to the point that our African friends can deal with them militarily. When that is achieved, then I hope we resume our generous aid contribution to Mali and the entire region, because by God they will need it. We are facing the possibility of a massive Darfur across the widest part of Africa. My colleague and other witnesses here happily spoke about the humanitarian angle, so I didn't have to. It is extremely important, but it is also separate from dealing with al-Qaeda.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dewar and Mr. Fowler.

We'll move over to the government side, with Mr. Dechert for seven minutes.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here and sharing your expertise with us.

Mr. Fowler, I would like to begin with you. Just let me say at the outset that we're all very aware of the ordeal that you and Mr. Guay suffered in 2008-09. It's really good to see you here looking so well today.

I would like to ask you about an article you wrote recently in the Globe and Mail, where you said:

...we have to pay politically correct obeisance to the “African-led” bit, but everyone knows the Africans can’t do what needs to be done on their own.

Could you elaborate on that position for us, and could you tell me if you think AFISMA is working?

[Robert Fowler]

Could you tell me the last part?

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

How is AFISMA , the African-led International Support Mission to Mali, working?

[Robert Fowler]

Let me start with the last part. It isn't working because it isn't there yet. If we had perhaps provided more than one plane for one week and then a little bit more, maybe they'd be there more. That would help.

Look, I did speak very frankly in that op-ed piece in the Globe and Mail, and I'm certainly one who will in different times and places pay a lot of attention to African obeisance. That said, when the UN Security Council just before Christmas, on December 20, passed Resolution 2085—Mr. Chairman, if you will forgive me for reading a direct, somewhat colourful quote into the record—the U.S. ambassador to the UN, Susan Rice, who almost became Secretary of State, is alleged to have called the UN plan “crap”. I kind of regret to say I think she was right. This was a three-legged plan that was being put together: first of all, build up the Malian army, then throw in AFISMA, and then finally, somewhat desperately, in paragraph 14 say, by the way, anybody else out there who can help, for heaven's sake, please do. That was sort of a Hail Mary play for a desperate situation. Unfortunately, the Security Council had failed to consult al-Qaeda on this, and they surged southwards, forcing the French reaction, and that reaction was remarkable. They moved from a standing start to fighting al-Qaeda within about 30 hours.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

The French have asked us for the loan and assistance of the C-17 aircraft that has been making many sorties there, carrying the equipment necessary and the personnel necessary to combat the terrorists in Mali. What do you think Canadian troops ought to be doing in Mali today? Should we be sending people there with weapons to fight the terrorists and the people who captured you?

[Robert Fowler]

Definitely. In my view, if I may, because you've given me the perfect opportunity, I wish we would stop talking in binary fashion about boots on the ground or not boots on the ground. It isn't that simple. Do I think Canadian infantry battalions ought to be drawing a line north of Kidal in the desert? No, absolutely not. Do I think Canadian special forces could be helping French special forces deal with these guys? Do I think Canadian intelligence officers, logisticians, helicopters, and trucks could be helping (a) the Africans and (b) the French? I certainly do.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Do you believe the French armed forces have asked Canada for that assistance as of today?

[Robert Fowler]

I have no idea, but I know the UN has.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Let me ask you a question. You may have recently seen a report in the media, the Canadian Press, of a Harris/Decima survey sampling about 1,000 Canadians saying that fewer than one in five Canadians support sending troops to a landlocked African country to fight a violent insurgency. What's your view or comment on that?

[Robert Fowler]

I think Canadians are not terribly aware of what's going on in Africa generally, and in much of the world as well. I, frankly, would wish that Canadians were better educated about what is happening in the world, and that in our high schools they would learn more, not only about Canadian history but about world history and about the reality of what's happening on the ground in places like the Sahel region.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Fair enough.

You said in your opening remarks that no Canadian in the zone is safe; no westerner in the zone is safe. You may know that some people have suggested that the Canadian government, in support of the road map to return to democracy in Mali, ought to be sending civilian election observers. Is that something, given what happened to you and Mr. Guay, that you would recommend we do in the next few months—send Canadian observers to observe that election?