Foreign Affairs Committee on May 2nd, 2013

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

That's all the time we have, Mr. Van Kesteren.

We're going to pop back over to the other side with Mr. Dewar.

You have five minutes, sir.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Chair.

Again, thank you to our guests for their testimony.

I think the idea that most people are unaware of this is reflected in that little story you told us.

One of the things that I also agree with—Mr. Rae made the point—is that it's about how it's presented. I concur with that. I think your strong argument, and Mr. Matas has talked about the narrative, is that narrative: who are we talking about, where are people from, and what is the issue?

Again, we've been through this so many times before. I'm somewhat hopeful, again, that after recent reports there's an opportunity to see people getting back to the table, and an opportunity for people to start to deal with all of the dilemmas that people have been trying to solve for many years. The notion of what a refugee is obviously is central to that.

Mr. Matas, I think you mentioned the idea of Canada having the gavel for the process of refugees. I also note that Canada recently sent a special envoy to the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation. On those two openings or opportunities for Canada, how do you see both of those opportunities as ways to express the issue? Do you see an opportunity, particularly in the Organisation of Islamic Cooperation, to bring the issue forward or not? You mentioned, and I've certainly heard it many times from both sides, particularly from the Palestinian side, the need to remind Canada that we hold the gavel for the process of refugees. I would like your thoughts on that.

[David Matas]

Well, in fact, I have talked with officials in the Department of Foreign Affairs about how to use that gavel, and I have raised it in context of this issue. They've historically been reluctant to do so because of the pushback they anticipate from the other side.

In my view—and frankly, I think instruction from this committee might help—raising this issue isn't something that would be harmful in getting to a resolution of the dispute. On the contrary, I think it would be helpful. In his closing remarks, Stan Urman kind of did it in a very rhetorical way—convincing to me—in saying that you can't have peace without understanding, reconciliation, and so on, and that we can't realistically expect to have a lasting peace if we walk away with these competing narratives. We do have to settle them.

The Arab League, I have to say, has not been sympathetic on this issue. In terms of the Jordanian, Israeli, or Palestinian bilateral agreements, that's fine, they've been okay, but the Arab League has not budged on this issue. We just saw them budge this week on land swaps, so there's a lot of potential flexibility, I think, and now is a fluid time. We should take advantage of that fluidity and our leadership in this issue to raise this issue and to push this issue.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I have a final question. To what extent is there a typical Jewish refugee experience? We're hearing from different parts of North Africa and the Middle East. We've seen the statistics you presented. Mr. Matas talked about a narrative. Is there a way to say what is a typical Jewish refugee experience, or is that something that is too diverse to be put together?

[Dr. Stanley Urman]

I think there is a narrative but it's not an individual narrative. The narrative is that Jews had lived in this region for centuries before the advent of Arab states. To varying degrees in different countries, Jews were persecuted or Jews were allowed to live benignly under the ruling of enlightened despots. Jews around the time of the founding of Israel were subjected to persecution and state-sanctioned repressions. Irrespective of the country in which they resided, Jews ultimately left.

By way of example, we spoke about Morocco. Morocco is the example of a country we point to where tolerance rules the day and the benevolence of a succession of Moroccan kings has really allowed Jews to live there in peace. Yet in Morocco where there were 265,000 Jews, today there are fewer than 3,000, and this is in the best of all countries.

So the narrative is that irrespective of the way each country reacted to their Jewish populations, they were displaced. They were legally determined to be refugees and they went to wherever they could find safe haven, two-thirds to Israel and a third elsewhere, including Canada. That's the typical narrative of the Middle East refugee.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

Do you want to make a quick comment?

[Dr. David Bensoussan]

Some refugees left their country in tragic and dramatic circumstances. I am thinking of Iraq, Egypt, Libya and even Syria, where the situation has been absolutely horrible. Elsewhere, there were examples of enlightened despots in Morocco and elsewhere.

Despite this appearance of openness, I can tell you that in the 1960s in Morocco, the minister of Islamic affairs strongly promoted Islam and converting Jewish minors who were kidnapped from practically everywhere. Officially, measures were in place, but in reality things worked differently.

Gradually, it became difficult to obtain a passport, kidnappings took place and there were attacks on the public in certain places. Examples like these undermined the people's trust and dashed their hopes of having a future in a given country. So they left secretly. I would suggest that there are two different scenarios, but that in fact, they each result in identical conditions.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to finish off with Ms. Brown for five minutes.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I know that Mr. Dechert has another question to ask, so I'll try to keep mine concise.

The people who have moved to Israel as refugees, has there been any social service available to them to deal with this? I would liken it to post-traumatic stress disorder. Has there been any recognition in Israel of the problem and have any services, either through social services or health care, been assigned to that?

[Dr. Stanley Urman]

I'll give a quick response and I'm sure others will add to it.

The integration of Jews from Arab countries in Israel is a controversial story. Israel was at war, under attack from six Arab armies. The population virtually doubled within a very short period of time. Israel tried as best she could to integrate refugees. But we do have pictures and newsreel footage of Jews in refugee camps in the most squalid, unsanitary tents. There were issues relating to shortages of food. There were issues relating to disease. Israel was in the middle of a war. So there were no social service agencies waiting at the beck and call of immigrants to try to assist them.

Moreover, there were many who came to Israel who felt that the traditional Ashkenazi leadership of Israel at the time was not as sensitive as it could have been and should have been to the rich history and vibrancy of these refugees who were coming to Israel and didn't appreciate the vast resources, and skills, and talents that they brought. So for many Ashkenazi Jews, Sephardim were not up to the status of Ashkenazi who came from Europe, were well-heeled, well-educated, etc.

It has been a struggle for Sephardic Jews. Today, even 65 years later, there are still Sephardic Jews in Israel who live in abject poverty, generations removed from the time that their parents or grandparents came to Israel destitute. The ramifications of Jews as refugees still lives on in Israel today.

[Dr. David Bensoussan]

I would say that it was an electric shock for both of them. The State of Israel had nothing at all. Within two or three years, 600,000 refugees arrived. But the required resources were not available. Particularly in terms of social services, and that was extremely difficult. Things have changed a great deal, but it took a lot of time for that to happen. It is a situation where the West and the East had to live and build together. Things have changed a great deal, and it has been for the better. It is not all ideal yet, but today's reality is not at all like what it was in the past.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Gentlemen, thanks for your comments again.

Mr. Abitbol, I have a question for you. You mentioned in your opening remarks that there were many situations of murder, torture, and arbitrary arrest suffered by Jewish refugees. As you know, there are a number of international human rights organizations. Some of the organizations that appear regularly before our committee are Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, and others. What, if anything, have they said about the circumstances and plight of Jewish refugees?

[Sylvain Abitbol]

Nothing that I know of....

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Why do you think that is?

[David Matas]

I should say, though, that what we're talking about is events. Most of these refugees came before many of these NGOs were founded. Amnesty started in the 1960s, Human Rights Watch was after that. Hopefully, if they had been around at the time, they would have said something, but they weren't.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Did they say anything about the Palestinian refugees, Mr. Matas?

[David Matas]

Yes, but you see the situation is, we have this group of Palestinians who, I would say, are artificially cantoned in this refugee description to their own disadvantage.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

Excuse me, we're short of time.

Your position is the reason that those organizations don't talk about Jewish refugees is that the events that happened occurred prior to the creation of those organizations. Are there any international organizations that existed at the time that have spoken out on this issue?

[Sylvain Abitbol]

No.

[David Matas]

As far as I'm concerned, I'd be happy to have them all speak out on the issue.

[Bob Dechert, Conservative, Mississauga—Erindale, ON]

I want to ask Mr. Abitbol another question.

You mentioned murder, torture, arbitrary arrest, and other things. Can you give us a few examples?

[Sylvain Abitbol]

We have well-documented examples that can be sent to the committee, definitely, with names, dates, and addresses. We have everything documented.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

That would be helpful.

[Dr. David Bensoussan]

We have a few books. Perhaps I could mention one which is very compelling.

[Sylvain Abitbol]

Can you maybe just take one example?