Evidence of meeting #23 for Foreign Affairs and International Development in the 41st Parliament, 2nd Session. (The original version is on Parliament’s site, as are the minutes.) The winning word was accord.
A recording is available from Parliament.
Director General, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
That remains to be seen. Obviously, that's one of the things to follow up on and that will be part of this ILO $24-million project. We'll be doing that, as we normally do in any kind of development assistance project that supporting. The managers of the project from ILO will be having regular independent monitoring and evaluation of things that have been supported under the projects, so they'll be able to do spot checks and follow through to see if the data is valid.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
I have a recommendation, simply because I was involved tangentially in the issue. We have quite a few Canadian companies, and some American ones as well, on compliance and sourcing supply chains.... I'm not sure if they've been active in this area, but there's a lot of activity in this really innovative area, as I'm sure you know. I think it would be smart to reach out to them as well. Some of them are right here in Ottawa and other parts of the country, where they're actually working on things such as in the States with the supply chain on the Dodd-Frank initiative, for instance. It's really quite something to see, where they've actually figured out how to work with companies to put in place action plans to source clean supply chains. I'll just leave that with you, and I'm sure that I or anyone else who knows about this can help you engage with those actors who are Canadian, and others, who are doing some phenomenal work in this area.
Conservative
Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
Thank you, Chair.
Thank you very much to our witnesses here today.
Mr. Garneau said he was surprised there were so many women who were working in the industry—the number of women—but the percentage of women should not be surprising because sewing is involved, and I'm sure that when the garment industry was strong in Montreal, there were a lot of women who would have been sewers at that time.
I know that in the furniture business, especially with fabric-covered furniture, women usually sew and men do the heavier work, the upholstering and the frame construction.
Education in some of these countries is quite the thing. Lots of times women don't get the same education as men. In the garment industry it's repetitive. It requires a great skill in sewing or cutting fabric. Women excel at those particular things.
Buyers work lots of times at fashion shows or in a marketplace. Maybe now they go on site a little bit more, but lots of times they will probably buy that product, because they like the line and can get it for a certain price. Those will happen.
The garment industry again has less investment. That's why it's in Bangladesh, Haiti, the Dominican Republic, Honduras, and Vietnam. It takes a smaller investment for sewing machines, sergers, cutting tables, scissors, and those types of things. The biggest thing is probably the buildings.
I know in Bangladesh a number of years ago one of our Canadian companies, Gildan, bought a factory. I think it was a working factory, but when they looked at it, they found there were no fire escapes and there was no elevator. It was a five-storey building. Also, when they looked at the building they didn't think it was built strong enough. It's my understanding they spent approximately $1 million—in Bangladesh $1 million is quite a bit of money—to upgrade to, to put in an elevator for safety. The people were walking the stairs, carrying cuttings from top to bottom.
In that instance, would Gildan have come to you? Or would they have gone and had someone say that you had to do this? It's my understanding they took it upon themselves to do this. Would I be correct?
Director General , South, Southeast Asia and Oceania Bureau, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I don't know the exact details of that. We did meet with Gildan when we were in Bangladesh.
Typically, a Canadian company setting itself up in a country would become part of the Canadian community—there's a Canadian executive running Gildan in Bangladesh—and would generally be in touch with the high commissioner or the embassy to do that sort of thing.
I just wanted to say that the model factory we visited was in downtown Dhaka. This industry has grown very fast. That's part of the problem, in fact. That's one reason. These are the wrong buildings. They shouldn't be in these buildings.
There is a plan, we discovered, to move more of these workers to an industrial park outside Dhaka—it's much safer—and that's where I think some of the more enlightened companies will establish themselves.
I'm quite sure that Gildan—though I stand to be corrected—is outside in more of a purpose-built building instead of an old shopping centre, which was the case of the Rana Plaza.
I was also struck by not only the large number of women working and being empowered and helping develop Bangladesh, but also by the large number of young men working in the factory. I was expecting only women. This is very important in terms of employment and economic development of the country, so that was a positive, I thought.
Director General, Asia Pacific, Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development
I would just add on the subject of education and talking about our development assistance program in Bangladesh. It's a major pillar of our long-term development assistance program in Bangladesh.
We are currently contributing $64 million over five years to a very large national program on primary education of over $7 billion over five years, of which donors like Canada, the UK, Australia, and the European Union are putting in contributions. As I said, ours is $64 million, and that is to address the shortfalls that remain in primary education in Bangladesh, although that country, with a population of 150 million, and for all of its challenges, has been a leader in raising the enrolment rate for girls in education. The girls coming to the factories have some of the basic education they would not have had 20 years ago but for the progress that's been made. But there's a lot of work still to be done.
Conservative
Gary Schellenberger Conservative Perth—Wellington, ON
I just have one thing, and again it relates to this young girl of 11 who you said was working in this factory.
I had a paper route when I was nine years old and I also cut a few lawns, so I can see where young people want to make a little extra money. As long as a place is safe—I don't know what the rates are or what the age limit is to work in a factory would be, other than knowing it's 16 here—there are young people who can do some of the menial jobs, some of those single-source jobs to clean up or to do whatever to make a little money and probably help their family.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you.
To our witnesses, thank you very much for taking the time to be here today.
We're going to suspend so we can get set up for our next meeting.
Thank you very much.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Welcome back to the second hour.
Joining us we have three witnesses. Here in Ottawa from Fair Trade Canada, we have Tom Smith, the executive director. Welcome, Tom. We're glad to have you here today.
From Loblaw Companies we have Bob Chant, the senior vice-president of corporate affairs and communications. It's good to see you again, sir.
Joining us via video conference from the Retail Council of Canada we have Diane Brisebois, the president and chief executive officer. Welcome, Diane, we're glad to see you as well again.
Why don't we get started right here with you, Tom? We'll have Tom, and then Bob Chant, and then we'll go to Ms. Brisebois to finish off. You have up to 10 minutes. Less is better if you can, but you have up to 10 minutes and then we'll go around the room for the remaining hour to get some questions on the floor.
Mr. Smith, I will turn it over to you, sir.
Tom Smith Executive Director, Fairtrade Canada
Thank you very much.
Good afternoon, Mr. Chair, and members of the committee. Thank you for the opportunity to speak today.
My name is Tom Smith. I'm the executive director of Fairtrade Canada, and I've worked in the fair trade movement and with co-operative organizations, both in Canada and internationally, for over 20 years.
Fairtrade Canada is the Canadian member of Fairtrade International. Fairtrade is the most widely recognized ethical label in the world. Our vision for fair trade is a world where trade justice and sustainable development principles are developed globally, thereby moving world farmers and workers from a position of vulnerability to security and economic self-sufficiency.
Currently the global fair trade movement is made up of 26 national fair trade organizations, primarily in northern purchasing countries, with more than 1,200 producer organizations worldwide, primarily in southern developing countries. In fact, producer organizations now own 50% of the global fair trade system, through a governance change in 2013, ensuring that workers and farmers are represented at every step of the way.
We just passed the first anniversary of Rana Plaza in Bangladesh, the worst industrial accident in living memory. Over 1,000 people were killed because laws and company codes were openly disregarded. However, all too often such an incident hits the headlines and then fades away. Meanwhile, millions of men, women, and children continue to labour day in and day out in tough and hazardous conditions, earning a subsistence living in order to produce the food we put in our mouths and the clothes we put on our backs.
Standard free-market doctrine is convinced that trade is crucial for economic growth and will create trickle-down effects that will eventually reduce poverty. Fairtrade believes in the first but not in the second. Trade alone is not sufficient. It must be accompanied by measures that promote equality, human rights, and environmental protection.
Finding the right balance between facilitating trade development and compliance is an arduous task that requires continuous improvement and fine tuning. Fairtrade has been doing this for 25 years, and our experience has taught us valuable lessons. In the process we have learned a great deal about how to meet the often conflicting needs of the private sector and disadvantaged producers and workers, and we're still learning.
Growth solves some problems, but inevitably breeds others. Fairtrade has seen farmers take shortcuts with organic certification, turn to bad labour practices to meet deadlines, or cut down forests to increase production. We have also confronted significant human rights abuses. Fair trade producer communities are not immune to the difficulties faced across the developing world, and indeed the developed world. Power dynamics can manifest themselves at every level, from co-operative boardrooms to the lives of individual farmers and workers.
Today I'd like to share with you three key ingredients, which we would encourage the Government of Canada to incorporate in its approach to ensure an end to not just the Rana Plazas, but to the constant grinding poverty and hardship of millions of small producers and workers across the globe.
Let me begin with ingredient one, where fair trade begins, which is best practice in standards and certification. Fair trade standards are set in accordance with the requirements of the ISEAL code of good practice for setting social and environmental standards. This means that standards are set on the basis of consultation with major stakeholders in the fair trade system. Standard setting in fair trade is not a one-time exercise. The realities on the ground, as well as new challenges and changes to external environment, dictate that we constantly review and fine-tune our standards.
While Fairtrade International sets the standards and supports producers to meet them, a separate certification company, which is ISO-65 accredited for fair trade certification, FLOCERT, regularly inspects and certifies producers and traders against the standards. FLOCERT auditors are experts in their field. They are familiar with the local and sector-specific realities that they are facing on site. They know the elements and the fair trade standards that carry the highest risk for non-conformities. As well, auditors receive regular training on identification and response required to mitigate those risks.
The second key ingredient to fair supply chains is fair pricing. At its heart, we get what we pay for. If products and goods are too cheap, there is a cost. Value is still too unevenly spread. Market concentration in food retail is getting worse. Competition is so fierce that there is a real risk of a race to the bottom in key commodities. Fairtrade wants to stop the race to the bottom, whereby suppliers in different countries compete against each other by lowering terms and conditions of work in order to receive business from the north. An example of this would be flower plantations moving from Kenya to Ethiopia, where wages are lower and tax incentives are given to new investors, or clothing brands moving their sourcing from China to Bangladesh after wage levels in China had begun to rise following strikes.
Half the world's hungry are farmers. This is not only a moral outrage but also a critical business risk for the security of supply. It is impossible to achieve sustainability if producers cannot capture an adequate share of value to fund sustainable business practice. Farmers are bearing the brunt of this squeeze. Smallholders are giving up, and plantations are casualizing labour and suppressing sustainable wages. We also see the cost in poor or unfair contracts, in failure to move towards living wages and in the supply chain’s trapping plantation workers or factory workers in a cycle of poverty, or in poorer worker rights. An example would be less freedom of association.
The Fairtrade minimum price is a vital protection for producers; however, it's not enough. Overall, we need to pay more for our goods if we want to see our supply chains delivering an end to poverty and promoting human rights rather than trapping people in poverty and preventing progress on rights. Higher living wages cost money, so do safer factories, so does environmentally sustainable farming, and so does paying the full cost of sustainable production.
Fairtrade has been a trailblazer for a living wage in the rural sector by commissioning the development of a living wage estimation and methodology. So far, we have developed robust living wage estimations for South Africa, Dominican Republic, Malawi, and Kenya. We have formed partnerships in industry and civil society, to help workers move towards a living wage, but we also need governments on our side.
In Europe, the Dutch and German governments organized the living wage conference in Berlin, in November 2013, to a common declaration with industry, unions, and NGOs. We encourage the Canadian government to follow this example.
Ingredient three is empowering farmers and workers, and bottom-up governance. The challenge faced by farmers and workers in developing countries goes beyond the scope of any certification system. Fairtrade International is building expertise in various program areas that can affect farmers and workers across all products, and is developing global strategies to help the most vulnerable.
For example, the last five years have taught us that our standards based on relevant international laws must go beyond producer groups and their members’ simply being able to recite fair trade requirements on child labour. Instead, we see an increasing leading role for producer organizations to become change agents in the fight against unacceptable social practices.
In order to support producers to fulfill this role, Fairtrade has adopted a children-first approach. Fairtrade has conducted rights-based focus groups with approximately 500 children and youth in fair trade organizations and their communities. Working children can teach us about their lives, the impact of their work on themselves and their peers, and the alternatives as they understand them. Of those participating, only five children and youth in these communities saw any prospect of a sustainable livelihood in agriculture—a warning shot across the bow to those who buy and consume commodities produced by their parents.
In conclusion, we encourage the Government of Canada to promote fairness in trade by requiring credible efforts of Canadian companies sourcing from developing countries and an expectation of business to respect human rights, including a living wage for workers. This will send a strong message. This has been embedded in the United Nations guiding principles on business and human rights as the leading international framework for governments and businesses to respect, prevent and, where necessary, remediate adverse impacts on human rights.
Transparency is key. Without transparency, business is simply marking its own homework as far as rights and wages are concerned. Transparency needs to be systematic. This is where credible standards and certification play a leading role. Another step that the Government of Canada could do to is to follow in the footsteps of the EU and lead by example by revisiting the federal government's public procurement standards to choose Fairtrade certified products and other sustainable procurement considerations. Other Canadian institutions are currently doing this with our Fairtrade towns, cities, and campus programs.
Finally, but most importantly, we need to invest in strengthening communities, farmers, and workers themselves. When people have the strength and capacity to speak for themselves and negotiate, conditions and wages improve. Without the space and permission for workers to advocate for their own rights, at the end of the day, regulation can only go so far.
Thank you very much for your attention. I look forward to your questions.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much, Mr. Smith.
We're going to turn over to Mr. Chant now, from Loblaws.
Bob Chant Senior Vice-President, Corporate Affairs and Communication, Loblaw Companies Limited
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
Good afternoon. My name is Bob Chant. I serve as the senior vice-president of corporate affairs and communication at Loblaw Companies.
Mr. Chair, thank you for the opportunity once again to address the committee in relation to this important matter. I don't need to remind everyone that last week was the anniversary of the tragedy at Rana Plaza, and on behalf of our entire organization, all of our colleagues, I'd like to once again extend sincerest condolences to the victims and the families who were affected by the tragedy. While we do not forget its tragic beginnings, we are proud to have made Loblaw a contributing voice in the response to Rana Plaza and its unfolding legacy related to workplace safety.
We continue to believe that the manufacturing community and overall economy of Bangladesh benefit from our presence, our attention, and our long-term commitment. Over the past 12 months Loblaw has worked with a number of individuals, industry, government, NGOs, and the International Labour Organization to respond to the human tragedy of Rana Plaza and to improve the standards that will define and protect the safety of workers from here forward.
When I addressed this committee last May I shared with you the Loblaw plan of action, and today I'm proud to report on the considerable progress we have made.
In the past year Loblaw has become a lead contributor in the financial response to this tragedy, having committed $5 million for local relief and compensation. That includes over $3.7 million in victim compensation provided to the ILO-led trust fund for long-term compensation to injured workers and the families of deceased workers.
In addition, $1 million is being provided to Save the Children in Bangladesh and the Centre for the Rehabilitation of the Paralysed for textile workers in Savar. An additional $285,000 was provided in short-term compensation to bridge between the time of the incident and the long-term compensation that has just started to flow in the last couple of weeks.
As I mentioned, Loblaw has publicly committed to maintaining production in Bangladesh while also contributing to improving workplace conditions in the country. The company has made every effort to be a leading voice on this topic, making public commitments and public statements on an issue that many other brands have chosen to avoid.
We also became an early signatory and the only Canadian company committed to membership in the accord for fire and building safety in Bangladesh. The accord is an independent legally binding agreement to make all garment factories in Bangladesh safe workplaces. It includes independent safety inspections at factories and public reporting of the results of these inspections. Where safety issues are identified, retailers commit to ensuring that not only are repairs carried out, but that sufficient funds are made available to make those reparations and that workers at these factories continue to be paid a salary while the improvements are being done.
We have raised the level of our standards and inspections of all factories where our products are sourced. In the summer of 2013 the company audited all the factories in Bangladesh producing our goods, and the information on all factories producing for us was shared with the accord. These standards, as you may recall, did not, prior to Rana Plaza, include building-integrity or building-structure inspections, and they do now.
In addition we are building a team of employees in the region to ensure the rigour of our factory audits and to monitor workplace conditions and local relationships. This team is led by Frank Merkley, a long-time Loblaw supply chain expert from Canada who has relocated to the region. The team's goal is to ensure that goods produced for sale by us are made in an environment that reflects Canadian values.
Now, it may seem easier to simply pull production from Bangladesh. Loblaw believes that the apparel industry can be a force for good. When I've travelled to Bangladesh over the past year, one message that we received loud and clear from day one from every single individual we met was “please don't leave” or “thank you for not withdrawing your production from this country”.
Helping victims and their family members find and hold a job is a critical piece of the recovery process, because jobs in the garment industry do help lift people out of poverty. We are proud to have committed to keeping our apparel production in the country. We believe that properly well-built factories can, indeed, be an agent for economic development and stability in countries like Bangladesh.
While the last year has seen meaningful change, in our view the collective industry response to Rana Plaza has taken too long, and various necessary steps have yet to be taken. Further, based on the initial compensation model that was calculated on a shared basis between government, industry, and brands, Loblaw, as one of the top contributing organizations, is contributing more than its share. However, we do believe that progress is occurring, most notably in the improvement of factory audits, and particularly the related information sharing that's happening within industry. And we are pleased with unprecedented coordination, albeit between a relatively small number of other retailers and our company, to account for the very real human and financial costs of the Rana Plaza collapse.
Loblaw is committed to driving long-term change that will benefit the Bangladeshi people, and in the coming months and years we will continue to work with our industry colleagues to do so.
Thank you very much.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much.
We'll now go, via video conference, to the Retail Council of Canada.
Thank you, Diane.
Diane Brisebois President and Chief Executive Officer, Retail Council of Canada
Thank you, Mr. Chair.
My name is Diane Brisebois. I am the President and Chief Executive Officer of the Retail Council of Canada.
Mr. Chair and members of the committee, thank you for the opportunity to speak again this year, as we did in May of last year.
As many of you know, RCC is a not-for-profit industry association representing more than 45,000 storefronts across Canada. Our membership includes independent merchants, regional and national chains, mass merchants, big-box retailers, and online merchants. Our membership represents all categories of retail, including general merchandise, grocery, and drugs.
As you know, the one-year anniversary of the tragedy at Rana Plaza just passed last Thursday. Over the past 12 months, RCC has been actively engaged in addressing the issue of worker and building safety in Bangladesh, which is a top priority for the retail industry.
As I mentioned last year, our members believe that any successful effort to correct the situation in Bangladesh requires support, shared responsibility, and action, not only among retailers and consumer brand companies, but also with factory owners, the Bangladeshi government, factory workers, NGOs, unions, and other stakeholders. We are committed to working collaboratively with all of these groups toward long-term solutions.
Several RCC members have launched their own projects to help improve working conditions following the tragic collapse of the Rana Plaza industrial building. Collaborative initiatives, such as the alliance and the accord, have also been put in place to provide industry with tremendous opportunities to tackle complex security challenges and to strengthen the effectiveness of measures for improving the safety of workers in Bangladesh.
RCC works with all its members to raise standards and foster concrete change, either through our members' independent initiatives, or in conjunction with the alliance and the accord.
Much like the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development, we support both the Accord on Fire and Building Safety in Bangladesh and the Alliance for Bangladesh Worker Safety in equal measure.
Our support of both initiatives reflects the fact that our members are participating in both of them. As a trade association representing the entire industry, it is not our role to dictate to our members which initiative they should join. That decision must be made by the individual companies based on the needs of their business and the other factors that impact them.
In addition, we believe that the fire and building safety problem in Bangladesh is a complex one that does not have just one solution. There is a range of political, economic, legal, and cultural factors to consider. As such, we are concerned that endorsing just one initiative would limit the solutions on the ground at this time.
We've been coordinating efforts in Canada between the accord and the alliance as much as possible. We have provided feedback to both efforts to ensure that they work together and that their efforts align with Canadian retail needs from the perspective of both large and small companies.
We've also hosted the management of both the accord and the alliance to provide an opportunity for them to talk to Canadian retailers directly. As much as possible, we've also engaged with stakeholders that deal directly with both initiatives, other NGOs, the Government of Canada, and in Bangladesh, international retailers, the International Labour Organization, among others.
We've also actively participated in joint advocacy with our peers in Canada and the U.S., including the Canadian Apparel Federation, the American Apparel & Footwear Association, the United States Fashion Industry Association, the National Retail Federation, and the Retail Industry Leaders Association, on several topics of interest, including letters to the Bangladesh government on reducing tariffs for building and fire safety equipment, on labour strife in Cambodia, and over the usage of cotton from Uzbekistan, where forced and child labour are a serious problem.
We've also been sharing various tools, resources, and intelligence with our members and other stakeholders, including with our peers in the Department of Foreign Affairs, Trade and Development; NGOs; and as mentioned, many other trade groups.
We applaud the work that the Canadian government has undertaken in Bangladesh, including active work on the ground in collaboration with other governments, support of various charities to aid injured workers, contributions to ILO programs and, more recently, High Commissioner Heather Cruden's role on the advisory board of the alliance, to facilitate alignment of activities between the accord and the alliance.
We look forward to further collaboration with you and will continue to offer whatever assistance we can in solving this very urgent and complex issue.
Merci. Thank you.
Conservative
The Chair Conservative Dean Allison
Thank you very much.
We're going to start with our first round of seven minutes. I'm going to see if we can do this, keep it on time, so we can get two full rounds in. That would be great.
Mr. Dewar, we'll turn it over to you, sir.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Thank you.
Thank you to our guests and those who were with us last year. Thank you for returning and providing your updates. Mr. Smith, thank you for your comprehensive overview.
Mr. Chant, I want to start with you. I remember well last year the conversation we had and I did mention the individual that I mentioned earlier, the young girl Tahmina, who embodied the issue for many of us. Her story about having to go to work when she didn't want to and didn't feel it was safe, I think, personified what the issue was.
Since that time—and you've given us some of the action items—you've signed the accord and I laud you for that. I've said that publicly a number of times, and I wrote an op-ed and underlined that. Why is it that others haven't done this?
Senior Vice-President, Corporate Affairs and Communication, Loblaw Companies Limited
I'm very pleased that Diane Brisebois and Heather Mak from the Retail Council could join us, because I have to applaud the work that the Retail Council has done. Diane pointed out, and Heather very actively shows this every day because she's on this file to make sure that everybody's included, that everyone has an opportunity to participate. It certainly seems to be the predominant issue she's dealing with these days.
I honestly can't speak for why others choose to join one organization or another. I can simply say, as I've done many times publicly, that the reason we decided to participate and sign the accord was twofold; one, that it was a legally binding document and we were willing to accept that responsibility and what comes with that; and two, we saw it as worker focused. The accord requires the participating companies, the signatories, to ensure the workers are kept as these improvements occur. I don't think any of us are fooled by the idea that this is going to be a quick fix; this is going to take some time. Each individual improvement plan applied to each individual factory that requires an improvement plan is probably going to displace some workers, either closing the factory completely or otherwise. Making sure those workers who are affected continue to be paid, we thought, was a very important part of the approach.
So we are very pleased that so many companies are moving forward. I did express our frustration in my opening remarks at the speed with which this is moving, notwithstanding that it's an incredibly large undertaking and the compensation file was very frustrating—
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
Was the accord supported right from the top of your company? Mr. Weston played a leadership role in that?
Senior Vice-President, Corporate Affairs and Communication, Loblaw Companies Limited
Yes, absolutely.
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
I say asked because I think it requires leadership for things to happen and to be very declarative as to why they're doing it. I noted that he had, which I just want to put on the record.
As for role and the frustration you have, we are frustrated as well. We had government officials here before. We talked last year about envisioning a process whereby government was on the ground supporting business and making sure that businesses are not only aware of what their responsibilities are, but giving them help to ensure they're going to be signing contracts with reputable actors.
Do you still believe that government has a role in this? That role, as we talked about last year, was simply to adhere to basic principles of CSR to help companies.
Senior Vice-President, Corporate Affairs and Communication, Loblaw Companies Limited
I'm not sure if your proposition is that the Government of Canada has a role to enforce—
NDP
Paul Dewar NDP Ottawa Centre, ON
No, no, let me be clear. It's to facilitate Canadian companies being able to act in a corporately responsible way. It's a partnership.
Senior Vice-President, Corporate Affairs and Communication, Loblaw Companies Limited
Sure, the government can play a role. I think the high commission in Bangladesh, in Dhaka, does exactly that. They could be held up as a model for promoting corporate social responsibility in developing countries. Mortoza—I can't remember his last name, the fellow that was working with High Commissioner Cruden—and High Commissioner Cruden have done an outstanding job in promoting Canadian values on behalf of Canadians in that country. The role High Commissioner Cruden has played in the group of five plus three, the role that she plays in an advisory capacity to the alliance, I think are all positive signals that exactly what you're suggesting is what's happening.