Foreign Affairs Committee on Sept. 9th, 2014

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, that's not part of the mission they are on. Any detainees will continue to be under the Iraqi regime in that regard.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to turn it over to Mr. Saganash. Go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I would also like to thank these gentlemen for their presentations.

Today's topic of discussion is complex. We will be involved in a critical and complicated situation for 30 days. I would like to focus on a specific aspect.

I assume some sort of a plan has been developed to take into account the situation's humanitarian aspect.

Mr. Baird, your visit last week showed us a large-scale population displacement. Your colleague referred to that population as “defenceless”. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have been internally displaced, and very concrete measures need to be implemented to address that situation.

Has a plan been developed as part of our mission to help that defenceless population? What measures have been implemented to deal with that aspect of the situation in Iraq, which is unfortunately ongoing? Do you feel that the current humanitarian aid provided is sufficient?

The cost of the military deployment referred to today has not really been discussed. Besides the amounts that have already been announced, have the additional costs in humanitarian aid required by the current situation been assessed?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Thank you for your question.

Of course, many people are defenceless. Our first order of business is to help the Iraqi government and the Kurdish Peshmerga forces defend those minorities and stop ISIL's advance. We do not want the humanitarian issue to get worse. Atrocities and barbaric practices abound, but I hope that Canada's assistance to the KRG and Iraqi forces will lead to change.

You asked whether the current level of assistance was sufficient. It is decidedly not. We were on the ground, and we saw how much aid was provided. We have made many announcements over the past few years. This year, we have already announced $28 million in assistance. This announcement was made by Christian Paradis, Minister of International Development and Minister for La Francophonie. I announced $7 million in additional aid last week.

The United Nations also requested additional assistance. We are currently looking into what could be done. I will speak with my colleague, the Minister of International Development and Minister for La Francophonie to see how much we could add. I saw the extent of the needs during my visit. Your colleague, our colleague, requested four additional elements. We are ready to look into what we can do. It is very important for Canada to do that, but we also want to encourage other countries to join in our efforts, as we could do so much more that way.

If this is insufficient, we will continue to provide assistance on behalf of the Canadian population.

[Romeo Saganash, NDP, Abitibi—Baie-James—Nunavik—Eeyou, QC]

Mr. Nicholson referred to this deployment as an advisory and assistance mission. Does that assistance include the immediate establishment of refugee camps in the northern part of the country? Is that the direction being taken?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

We will follow the United Nations' leadership when it comes to organizing refugee assistance. We can also work with other organizations and good partners, such as the Red Cross and other Islamic development organizations. I think that people who are already on the ground need our help. We will look into how we can meet the needs they made known the other day. We visited the region to determine what the needs were. We have already made numerous announcements, and we will continue to do our part.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

That's all the time we have. We're going to finish off—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Humanitarian aid is being provided, but assistance to victims of sexual violence and security issues are very important, as well, of course.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Minister Baird and Mr. Saganash.

We're now going to complete this round with Mr. Anderson, please, for five minutes.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Thank you, gentlemen, for being here today.

I want to come back to an issue that a couple of people have raised. Mr. Dewar mentioned the issue of religious persecution. There are numbers of reports of religious minorities being viciously persecuted, and I think on one occasion on Mount Sinjar. Could you talk a bit about some of the specifics of that event? Are there other specific events the committee should be aware of in terms of what's happening on that front?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

Mr. Anderson, I think some of the evidence I've seen of the persecution is pretty graphic. I think many of us have seen some images not simply on the web; in meetings I've had with different Christian groups, the Yazidi community, they've provided indirect eyewitness accounts from their families who are present on the ground. Obviously the situation around Mount Sinjar was quite acute. It was very focused. The same was the case around Mosul, and in Qaraqosh, just outside of Mosul, where the Christians were driven out by ISIL. For the first time in 2,000 years there are no Christians present there.

I think the targeted persecution of both the Christians and the Yazidis and Mandaeans takes on a variety of different forms. As Mr. Dewar pointed out, the Yazidis and the Mandaeans feel very anchored to a particular territory because it's incorporated in their faith. Christians feel the ability to move and to leave. I want to flag again the importance of not only helping those Christians and other religious minorities who feel they need to leave the region to do so through the resettlement program that we already have in place, but also of ensuring, and I think this is largely part of the focus of our work in the office of religious freedom, that those Christians and other communities that want to remain in the region are able to do so. Again, I think that plays to Mr. Dewar's point on the need to protect those communities.

When you speak to the religious leaders, to the various bishops and other leaders I have spoken to, they want people to stay, but they also realize that some may need to leave. It's a very difficult situation, and you can tell that they're very anguished about it. Although there are mass atrocities happening across political and religious communities, the response of those communities varies somewhat based on their own assessment of their need to remain in place.

I think part of our work that we would like to undertake in the coming months or over the medium and long terms would be to support in particular those Christians who have fled to countries of migration, such as Jordan and Lebanon, so that they might have the requisite places they need to help them maintain their identity and hopefully remain in the region.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Minister, do you...? Okay. I thought someone else might want to respond to that.

I'm just wondering if DFATD provides programming funds for this at all. You mentioned some of the projects you may be looking at. I think there's some money going into supporting the High Council of Religious Leaders in Iraq. There's another one advocating for rights of religious minorities in Iran that we put money into. I'm wondering if you can talk about the work with that community. What you see as the future there?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

I can't speak to the specific examples that you mentioned, because it wasn't funding that came through our office. It might have come through another part of the department. We can certainly get back to you on that, Mr. Anderson.

On the funding that we are envisaging, I would say there are two tracks. We recently had a call for proposals through our religious freedom fund which completed on August 4. The call was from June until August 4. That was a global call for proposals. We netted roughly 220 proposals for funding for projects around the world, but we had a specific focus on the Middle East, Southeast Asia, and Africa. We have received, I believe, three specific project proposals that would help persecuted religious minorities in the region. We still have to go through our regular internal process to assess those, but those are happening in the immediate future, within the next week or so.

Then it's our intention to launch.... Under our terms and conditions for the religious freedom fund, we can launch a DFATD initiative that focuses specifically on a particular theme or a particular region. That's been sort of the ultimate goal of my consultations that I've been undertaking with CNEWA, Aid to the Church in Need, and various other groups.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thanks, David. That's all the time we have for this round.

Before we start the next round I do want to ask a question, probably a quick question that requires a longer answer.

Can we talk a bit about Iran? I know that Iran has been a hugely destabilizing force in the area, in Syria as well as Iraq. They're concerned with ISIL. From a security perspective, how do you see dealing with Iran as it relates here? It's obviously a very tricky question. They've not had a great track record at all in this area.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Some would say, “the enemy of my enemy is my friend”. I would not say that.

Iran is the biggest state sponsor of terrorism in the world. Just because it's not their brand of terrorism doesn't absolve them. They have had a very destabilizing influence in just about every single country in that region, from Hezbollah in south Lebanon to Hamas in the Gaza Strip to their interventions in Bahrain, to the attempt to kill the Saudi ambassador in a restaurant in Washington, to their intervention in Yemen and their growing role in parts of Iraq. We take a very negative view of that. There have been media reports of certain things. I think the Kurds would probably share, maybe not my complete view, but my apprehension.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to start the next round with Mr. Dewar. Go ahead for five minutes, please.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Regarding a question I wanted to get to before—actually it's just a statement—I hope the government reconsiders our taking in Syrian refugees. We've been asked by UNHCR to take 10,500 refugees for the next two years, because doing so would alleviate things. It wouldn't deal with the whole refugee crisis, but we know that in the north of Kurdistan and Iraq they took 300,000 Syrian refugees, so they're already dealing with that. It's something I would encourage you to talk to your colleague Mr. Alexander about, Mr. Baird.

We were there on the ground before. One of the things we know is that the peshmerga know how to fight. We don't have to teach them how to fight. They know the ground. Their motto is: the mountains are our only friends. This is not Afghanistan. This is a group of people who know how to command and control. They do need other supplies certainly.

My question for the Minister of National Defence is this: what are we going to teach the peshmerga? I've heard from you what we won't be doing. That's very clear. We won't be doing this and we won't be doing that. What will we actually be doing in light of the fact that we do have a group of people who are able to fight?

Finally, I would note, as the Prime Minister himself said in Wales, that ISIL will not be defeated just by the military. If there is something else you want to add, how else are we going to deal with them?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I do agree with you that peshmerga forces are experienced. I think you correctly pointed out that the mountains are their home. I think where they lack specific skills is in a more conventional type of warfare, in which there's a clearly delineated front line. I think that will be the focus.

I do think this cannot be won militarily. It is essential that the government in Baghdad address the real problems that frankly have existed for more than a decade. The outgoing prime minister has not led an inclusive government either in terms of his cabinet or in terms of any program, and there is no doubt that fact has exacerbated a bad situation. Let's have some hope that the message that you delivered, that I delivered, that Mr. Garneau delivered, and that Canadian diplomats have delivered for some time is heard. Let's hope that the promise they're making about a government of inclusion is actually borne out, not just, frankly, in the hours and days ahead, but for weeks, months, and years. That will be key to winning this battle.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

I think you make a good point: it's not just a military exercise. This is one component of this. You and your colleagues and the minister have been very clear that this is one component of what has to be done for there to be a success in this area. You've touched upon assistance to refugees and humanitarian assistance. Again, it has to be all a part of this to make things work. It's not just a military exercise

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Promoting pluralism is a key part of it though. That's why we are supporting the Global Centre for Pluralism with the Aga Khan Foundation—

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

I appreciate that.

I'm trying to get at the heart of the military piece, which we on this side have concerns about. If we have these battle-tested peshmerga and we're being told all the things we can't do, I'm still not clear exactly what we would be doing and the value of what we'd be providing when there are already people who certainly know how to fight.

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, as I indicated, I believe that technical assistance and advice will be invaluable. The Chief of the Defence Staff has a few comments.

[Gen Thomas Lawson]

I would just say, Mr. Dewar, that you are absolutely right in recognizing that the peshmerga have no shortage of fighting spirit or courage. What they do not have is the luxury of a significant standing army or professional standing army. Here in Canada we have the luxury of having developed that very thing. We're certainly battle-tested in ways, and Afghanistan has provided us a tremendous ability to advise and assist. It is that very thing that the peshmerga seek from western allies.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

If I may say so, with respect, we're not talking about fighting a conventional war, so a standing army is one thing. The peshmerga did push back the IS, and I know there were problems at the beginning. I'm just trying to glean here what we're offering that they don't have. I'm hearing, and we have heard, that they need arms. Fair enough. Are we now going to be supplying them with the arms and training them on those? Are we just going to be training them along with our allies who are supplying the arms? I think they have the tactics down pat. I think one of the lessons the Americans learned in Iraq and in Afghanistan in some ways is that you're not fighting a conventional enemy. In fact the peshmerga know how to deal with these guys, because it's not a typical war; it's an asymmetrical war.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'm going to respectfully push back on you. I think you correctly identified that they are experienced in the mountains. That is where their home is. When they are out in open terrain with a more conventional type of battle with a front line and the type of equipment they're going to need to work with to engage with the air support that the Americans and others are providing, I think they will need support.

I can say that not only have President Obama and the United States asked for our support in this type of area but that the KRG and the Iraqi forces are welcoming that support.