Foreign Affairs Committee on Sept. 9th, 2014

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Whenever we're called upon, as I indicated earlier, we always step up to the plate and get the job done regardless of when, where, or how, but I think you raise a very good point. There is quite a bit of knowledge on technical matters and issues related to that part of the world that was gained in the conflict in Afghanistan. We believe this will be very helpful in Iraq.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much, Mr. Garneau.

We're now going to start our second round of five minutes back and forth. We're going to start with the Conservatives and Ms. Brown.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

Thank you very much, Mr. Chair.

I thank each of you for being here this morning. This is a very serious discussion that Canadians need to hear.

Minister Baird, I'd like to address my questions to you regarding the humanitarian situation that you saw when you were in Iraq last week.

Each of you has referenced the enormous humanitarian crisis that is developing, and each of you talked about the victims you have seen. Canada has been engaged over the long haul on this. In fact, since the beginning of 2014, we have spent more than $28 million on development assistance, humanitarian assistance, in Iraq. We have, since 2009, resettled more than 18,000 refugees from Iraq. We've committed to another 5,000 coming out of Turkey, most of them Iraqis. We have been engaged in this situation for a long time.

Mr. Minister, could you talk about how important it is that Canada participate? While you were there, what did you observe in regard to the humanitarian assistance we are providing?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'm sure that Mr. Garneau and Mr. Dewar will speak to this as well.

Obviously, our first priority is to stop this crisis from growing and getting worse. That means containing ISIS from expanding. We have provided very substantial support already.

The issue of supporting refugees has been important. Minister Kenny and now Minister Alexander have done a lot of work on that. We've done a lot and we'll do more.

We announced $15 million in security assistance and $7 million in further humanitarian aid while we were there. I look at Mr. Dewar and Mr. Garneau. That's clearly positive and will have a very positive contribution, but more will be needed. There is no doubt about that.

I think we have to do two things. One is to help ensure that we support the agencies on the ground. My views on some aspects of the United Nations not living up to their original high purpose.... I have been very complimentary of the work that Valerie Amos' humanitarian group does and that the World Food Programme does with Ertharin Cousin. We saw first-hand the good work that the UN is doing on the ground. They need more help and support. That is obviously a message I'm going to be bringing back to the government.

There are many families who don't want to leave Iraq. They obviously are horrified of the prospect of returning to Mosul; I mean, if your neighbour ratted you out to an international terrorist organization for being a Christian, it's hard to perceive how you would ever feel comfortable returning to that. Some may want to come to Canada or leave Iraq; others would be very keen to be resettled within the Kurdistan Regional Government territory. That as well is something that we learned. Also, we'll look at what other measures we can do.

Notwithstanding our generosity in trying to support religious minorities fleeing persecution and death, Canada has faced some criticism about supporting the de-Christianization of the Middle East, and particularly Iraq. Obviously we want to support a pluralistic Iraq. Pluralism is one of the great things that we've established in this country. If that's not possible in all parts of Iraq in the short term, it certainly is very possible in the KRG territory. That is something we'll look at. We obviously are concerned about a number of areas. I know that Mr. Dewar and Mr. Garneau have ideas they'd like to share in regard to what they learned as well, and we're certainly prepared to listen to them.

[Lois Brown, Conservative, Newmarket—Aurora, ON]

You spoke a little bit about what Canada is providing, such as medical supplies, tents, blankets, going through agencies like the International Committee of the Red Cross, Save the Children, and Mercy Corps. These are all organizations that have deep roots working in Iraq.

Were you able to speak with any of those partners while you were there?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Sure. We spoke to a number of them, not just those but others. As well, there was a Canadian who was in charge of one UN operation whom we had the opportunity to spend a little bit of time with. They're doing a lot of good work but more needs to be done. I think the development side has to be part of the equation. It's not a choice between security and defence and development. We can do all three. Going forward we will need to do more, particularly as we see the winter approaching.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're now going to move over to Mr. Dewar from the NDP. You have five minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you to our guests.

I want to start with Minister Baird. I saw what you saw and heard what you heard. I think it's very clear that the priority for our government is to help those who are suffering, those who had to flee, as you mentioned. We talked to those families and we saw on the front lines what was happening.

To that end I want to formally put forward a couple of asks that I would like to get the government to consider.

Obviously—you've already touched on it—there has to be an immediate support for the set-up of refugee camps. The refugees we didn't see were in Duhok where they do not have any shelter at all. As we noted it was 46 degrees. Winter will soon be coming, so that clearly has to be something we support. Just two days ago the UN had an appeal for $315 million so clearly there's an ask there. There's a critical need to build those refugee camps, frankly, yesterday.

Regarding supporting the protection of minorities, if I may, this isn't the first time we've seen the assault on minorities. This is the third wave. I was there in 2007. In 2006 there had been the targeting of Christians, Yazidis, and a group that most people won't know, the Mandaeans, who are John the Baptist followers, etc. Then there was the follow-up to that just after I was there in 2009, when there was another wave. Twenty years ago there were 1.3 million Christians. There were 700,000 in 2009. I have no idea what the numbers are now. We need protection for minorities. What we heard is that many of them don't want to leave the country. In the case of Yazidis, they can't because their belief is that they have to be in this particular region. In the case of the Christians, they want to stay in the country but they can't go back to Mosul for reasons you mentioned. We need protection for minorities, be it housing or new communities being built supporting that.

Supporting the victims of sexual violence is something we have to do. I'm assuming we are going to do it, both the prosecution of the perpetrators and support for the victims. We also have to investigate and prosecute the alleged war crimes. I'm putting that on the table and being public about it.

Minister Baird, one of the questions I have relates to the defence piece. When we were on the ground—and I appreciate the invitation from the government, I really do; it was important—we had no indication that we would be asked to send troops. For the record, I want to hear from you: were you aware of that ask when we were on the ground, not after there was an announcement, but was that something you were aware of? I say that because in all of the meetings we had with the President of Iraq and President Barzani of the Kurdish regional government, they didn't ask for boots on the ground. For the record, were you aware of the ask? Will you agree with me that we weren't asked by people on the ground in the meetings we had to send troops?

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

I'll answer the second part of your question first.

Obviously, I think the people whom we met with want to win this battle themselves but they need support. They talked about the need for arms, ammunition, and the like. They're not asking for someone to come in and fight their battle for them. So the answer is yes. We provided $50 million of assistance for non-lethal military security support.

In conversations with the American government, with President Obama, this idea had come up. Obviously, when the Prime Minister and other leaders met on the margins of NATO, further decisions to proceed were made. I knew that this was something that was in the cards; it was being considered.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

In the media we heard it was something of a discussion between the President and the Prime Minister, and that was it.

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Yes.

If I could, I do want to come back to your first point. You mentioned four areas, and my answer on all four is yes, yes, yes, and yes.

I think there is no doubt that the UN's appeal is an important one. There is clearly the need. I think they need 13 more camps of the size of the second camp we visited. The appeal has gone out. We received it, obviously. Notwithstanding the fact we have one department, we have a full minister of international cooperation, and I'll be speaking with him and my colleagues at our department to look at what else we can do. We should certainly be very clear that the humanitarian mission will not go on for just 30 days; it will clearly have to be something that is more long term.

The protection of minorities and resettlement is something that we learned, and we can look into what support we can do for that. I wholeheartedly agree with your comments on the victims of sexual violence. This has been something that Canada has been active on going back a number of years. Your intervention with respect to Libya was an important one. We put money into the G-8 appeal under the United Kingdom's leadership, and I led a delegation to an international conference supporting this issue earlier this summer. That is important not just with respect to rape as a weapon of war, but it also goes to the comments Mr. Garneau made about the Yazidi women and Christian women being forced to convert and into forced marriage, which is tantamount to rape in and of itself, and certainly constitutes sexual violence. I'll have my officials look at what could be done with respect to war crimes and the ICC. Those are four good points.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Thank you, Mr. Dewar, and Minister.

We're now going to complete the second round and turn to Mr. Goldring for five minutes.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you for appearing here today, gentlemen, to help us understand this better. I think it's worth mentioning that Canada's contribution to this is to be greatly respected and admired. I think it's nothing new. Since Confederation Canada has fielded some two million men and women in uniform, at a cost worldwide of some 115,000 who never came home. So Canada's contribution throughout all these years has been tremendous and tremendously respected.

Ambassador Bennett, I'd like to ask you the following. It seems that we've just gone through one long series of efforts combatting terrorism and now another group seems to be coming forward that is even more barbaric than the one from the past that we've worked to fight over the past 10 years. It seems to be coming under the name of Islam. With your work with the various religions and organizations, is there any centralized area with the Islamic communities that you have had communication with? Is there a central area there? Do they roundly condemn this organization? What nations in the region are seemingly supportive of it, and which ones do we hope we can have some influence from at some time possibly in the future to counteract some of this type of outrageous barbaric behaviour in the name of their religion?

[Dr. Andrew P.W. Bennett]

I think it's a very important issue that you raise, Mr. Goldring.

I think we need to be very clear that Islam does not condone terrorism. What we see in ISIL is a gross warping, distortion, twisting of a perceived understanding of Islam that is not Islam. I think that's been very clear and I think the majority of countries in the region have stated that.

Certainly the Saudis have condemned ISIL. The grand mufti a number of weeks back speaking from Riyadh condemned the activities of ISIL, saying that it was not Islamic. We have had tremendous support from the Jordanians who have been very active in the area of religious freedom. They categorically condemned ISIL.

I think there is a recognition that ISIL is not simply targets, although the majority of the people they are targeting are religious minorities such as Christians, Yazidis, Mandaeans, and Shia Muslims. They will not stop there. They go after Sunnis that disagree with them. I think the countries in the region realize that if this is not stopped, if this violence they are perpetrating is not halted, they will not stop simply at the borders of Syria and Iraq; they will go after Sunnis that reject their distorted and warped understanding of Islam.

To the point of a central authority, I think it's important to note that with the exception of some strains of Islam, such as the Shia Ismaili Muslims, there is no central leadership. In Sunni Islam it is a fairly diffuse system of leadership through imams and senior imams, grand muftis in different states. I have not had any contact with a particular central authority since there really is not one as we might understand it in the context of Christianity with bishops, or patriarchs, and so forth. However, I have reached out to a number of different Islamic communities represented here in Canada.

I had a wonderful meeting this past Friday with Imam Hamid Slimi, a Sunni Muslim leader in Toronto. I've engaged Shia Muslim leaders both in Toronto and Montreal, all of whom have roundly condemned ISIL's actions and have condemned not simply ISIL's approach and distortion of Islam, but they've condemned explicitly their persecution of Christians. They've condemned explicitly their persecution of the Yazidis. I have full confidence in the outreach that I've done to the Islamic community here in Canada that they are very aware of the grave threat that ISIL poses.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

What is their major—

[John Baird, Conservative, Ottawa West—Nepean, ON]

Perhaps I could add something. I had a conversation with one member of the Saudi royal family. Instead of saying they're Islamic fighters, I think ISIS is more like a cult than it is a religious group.

I was also very pleased, not just with respect to Islam, but the Arab League spoke out very strongly and unanimously in recent days. We have seen substantial humanitarian assistance from the Saudis and other support from Jordan and the United Arab Emirates which is important.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

What is their major power base—

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Mr. Goldring, that's all the time we have, sir. I'm sorry to cut you off.

We're going to continue on and start our next round, which is still a five-minute round, with Ms. Gallant.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

My question is for the Minister of National Defence. Why is it that Canada is one of the first countries to participate in this?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

It goes back a little bit to the record that your colleague, Mr. Goldring, said that when people find themselves oppressed, attacked, when their freedom is threatened, when people are being murdered, Canada has a record second to none to stepping up and assisting people who find themselves in that situation. If you go back over Canadian history, you'll find that we were never in the business of conquering other lands or taking lands from people, or oppressing people. We've always stepped in to assist the people whose freedom was being threatened. Our role here is perfectly consistent with that.

As you know, we had a long engagement in Afghanistan. Again that was perfectly consistent with our being there to assist the people of Afghanistan. One of the things I think all of us as Canadians take pride in is when we go on these missions, we make a difference. Where we have been, people are grateful for what we've done. When I was in the Middle East last summer, I heard this myself from different individuals in different countries. They seem to be very appreciative of the role that Canada played. I say to Canadians that when we are in Europe, the Netherlands and other places people tell us how appreciative they are of Canadians. But it's not limited to what we did in Europe. Certainly Afghanistan is a good example. Certainly this is the latest in the Canadian story of assisting people who are in a very desperate situation. It's perfectly consistent with the role that we've always played.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

What are the rules of engagement for the forces on this mission?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Again, as I indicated in my opening remarks, we are there to provide advice and technical assistance. These are not boots on the ground. This is not a combat mission. We are there to give advice to the Iraqis, working in collaboration with our allies—the Americans, the British and others—consistent with what we do when we're called upon to work. In combination with others, we are there to assist and provide technical assistance only.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Could you describe the command relationship between our forces and those of the United States, as well as how operations will be approved and directed?

[Rob Nicholson, Conservative, Niagara Falls, ON]

Well, not too surprisingly, the operational relationship between us and the United States is very good. As happens whenever we get involved, whether it's in a mission like this or indeed in a formal arrangement such as NORAD, we work in cooperation with our American allies as we do with other allies. As I made clear to some of our colleagues here, the command of the Canadian Forces will be under the Canadian Chief of the Defence Staff and those he designates. We are very clear on that.

Again, as you know, and you've had a long record in this area, Ms. Gallant, of having a look at NATO and Canada's contributions and Canada's cooperation with other nations, we'll act consistently with how we have always operated in the past, which is to make sure that what we are doing overall is having a positive effect and that it is not a one-off and we are not renegades or off on our own. We want to make sure that we compound the effectiveness of what we are doing by working with others.

[Cheryl Gallant, Conservative, Renfrew—Nipissing—Pembroke, ON]

Is there any anticipated role for our forces in handling detainees?