Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2014

[Rev Niaz Toma]

Thank you very much for the question.

Yes, unfortunately, as Reverend Majed mentioned, ISIL started with only 1,500 fighters and now they are estimated to be at 30,000. We have to understand the mentality of these people. These people are coming to die at any price. They are coming to die anyway so that they can go there and enjoy the 72 virgins, and this and that, and all these promised gifts. That explains how they are increasing in numbers and how every action has a reaction. When they saw the international coalition, they got aggressive.

Yes, they are advancing on the ground. The only solution—I have to say this—is that when you have military forces on the ground and they are organized military forces, they will go like the wind in no time. They are there to die, so no tactics, no military capabilities.... There will be a chaotic defence in their approach, but they are taking advantage of the absence of a true Iraqi army. There is no army.

Paul Bremer made a comment recently. He was answering a criticism that he is responsible for the decision on the dissolution of the Iraqi army, that he opened the doors. I asked him this in person: “Was it a personal decision or was it an American administration decision?” He didn't answer in such a format. He told me that a decision of this size cannot be a personal decision; I have to say this. He was answering the criticism of the dissolution of the Iraqi army by saying that was no Iraqi army to dissolve because it all disappeared. We don't know if this is true or not, because when it comes to national security, I think all the former officers of the Iraqi army would answer a call to defend their own country.

ISIL is advancing and is taking advantage of the absence of the Iraqi army and the absence of ground combat troops. They are increasing in numbers and they are getting more aggressive in their approach.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

There is also the issue of the funding that supports ISIS. These funds often come from other countries, although some experts tell us that that source is diminishing. The funds also come from oil sales that are done through Turkey, and arms purchases that happen in that same country. We are told that the border between Turkey and Iraq is very porous because those countries are occupied, and because of the situation in Syria, with the refugees.

Mr. Lamani, do you think it would be an option to try and asphyxiate ISIS by helping Turkey to strengthen its border to the east?

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

As quickly as you can, please. We're over time, but we'll have an answer.

[Mokhtar Lamani]

The governments, secret services and other organizations do a lot of work and there are a lot of programs. Here is the background to all this.

Turkey is a member of NATO. I know that every secret service in the western world and beyond, and NATO are at the border. On the other hand, the jihadists are not parachuted in. They come from somewhere. There are so many programs, things that are left unsaid, and secrets.

Turkey has a lot more choice than Chad or Mali, that have no ways of monitoring their borders. There are a lot more choices in this case.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to finish off this second round with Mr. Menegakis, please.

Welcome, sir.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you to our witnesses for appearing before us today. We certainly appreciate your comments and your opening remarks.

Your Eminence, I'd like to begin with you, if I may. Christians and religious minorities in the region have been the subject of persecution for centuries. Certainly, the Greek Orthodox faithful have not been immune to such persecution. Can you give us a sense of the lasting effects on a community of people who endure such bias and such hatred, particularly the effects on the children and the future of the children?

[Archbishop Sotirios Athanassoulas]

If we take, as an example, Turkey, we will see that all the minorities are almost gone. In 1917 or 1922 there were millions of minorities. Now there are not more than 100,000. Does this not say, though, because they impose their will on the people, “Either you become what we are or you are killed, or get out of here”? This is the situation. As far as I'm concerned, in those places, in those countries, unless things change drastically, there is no hope for the minorities.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Reverend El Shafie, you said, “In the absence of light, darkness prevails”. That's a very striking comment. As you know, Canada has joined like-minded partners in participating in the military effort against ISIL. Do you see any possibility of resolving the barbaric actions of ISIL in the region without military intervention?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

To be honest with you, I don't. Just in Iraq, there are a lot of elements that can help. I think if the Iraqi central government made a peace agreement with the Sunni tribe groups that would help a lot, as would respecting the minority rights of such groups as Christians and Yezidis and so on and so forth. I think those are all elements that will help. However, without military intervention by a local western-trained army that respects western values, I don't think this will be possible. I don't see this coming to a conclusion.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

Father Toma, can you give us an estimate of the number of Iraqi Christians and other religious minorities still under the control of ISIL? What is known of their fate today?

[Rev Niaz Toma]

According to our information, there are no Iraqi Christians under the control of ISIL, although we hear in the media that there is a price for Christian women. We have one account of only three people who are elderly. One of them was visited at the hospital. He couldn't leave the city and he converted to Islam by power, and the others are two very old ladies. The information we have is that there are only three people.

Apparently ISIL did receive instructions. The way they treated the Yezidis was quite different from the way they treated Christians. Apparently the instructions were to just take the Christians out of their towns, their villages, their cities, their houses, confiscate everything—even heart medication was confiscated from an elderly person—and kick them out. The instructions with regard to the Yezidis were, no, torture them; kill them savagely.

They were asked the reason for this differentiation. The answer was that in the Koran, the book they believe was dictated by God to Muhammad, Christians are described as “The people of the Book”, and there is a verse in there that says to treat them well: “Aaamiloo houm husna”. So they are literally going by the Koran. The Yezidis are, for them, blasphemers; they don't believe in God.

So according to our information, there are no Christians under the control of ISIL.

Thank you.

[Costas Menegakis, Conservative, Richmond Hill, ON]

Thank you.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you, Mr. Menegakis.

That concludes our second round.

We'll start a third round, and we'll lead off with Mr. Goldring, please.

Go ahead for five minutes, sir.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Thank you very much for being here today. It's a very interesting discussion.

Your Eminence, we had a discussion recently about an organization, the Interparliamentary Assembly of Orthodoxy. It's an organization of some 25 countries that have members of Parliament from the various countries in this organization. I believe it gives a good forum for discussion, certainly on orthodox concerns, as they are predominantly in the European concerns of today. But it also has subcommittees on policy, education, and many other things that people can collaborate on. Canada is not part of this, although our colleague Mr. Menegakis has attended a session. I believe Canada should be represented there officially in that organization, to take part in these discussions.

My question is to you, Ambassador Lamani. Would this not be a format or something that could be considered by countries with Muslim parliamentarians, who could come together to collaborate on particular issues? We talked about the importance of education and other things to be discussing, not like in the United Nations where it's Arab countries, but countries that have Muslim populations, such as in Canada, the United States and many other countries, so that we can have a more moderate consultation and discussion and, perhaps, maybe get into some of these questions of education and other issues that could be collaborated on together.

[Mokhtar Lamani]

I think I'm not in a position to answer in the stead of some states, but I think they have interparliamentary associations as well. I know there are two at the Arab level, and there's one at the Islamic level. There's an interparliamentary organization. I'm not sure where the headquarters are; I know the Iranians were interested in the Parliament of Iran having the headquarters.

I think there are some issues that should be developed internationally. When you talk about human rights, it has nothing to do with belief. When someone's rights are abused, it has nothing to do with that. He might be Muslim, Jew, Christian, or whatever. So there are issues that should be addressed internationally in a very firm way, because they are human principles.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

Is this an organization that you can give us some information about? I'm not familiar with the organization.

[Mokhtar Lamani]

Yes, I think they have a website. The Islamic one, I'm sure it's in Arabic, French, and English on their website.

[Peter Goldring, Conservative, Edmonton East, AB]

I would think this would be a good forum for this type of dialogue, to have these conversations. I know the organization on the orthodoxy is certainly a good forum to have discussions on problematic situations around the world.

Your Eminence, maybe you could comment on the Interparliamentary Assembly of the Orthodoxy as to how effective you have seen this organization to be, and perhaps how it might be improved to have more effectiveness in the future.

[Archbishop Sotirios Athanassoulas]

I do not know very much about this. I've talked to the chairman in Greece. He is a member of Parliament in Greece, and together he and a few others had a meeting there. The only thing I know is this. And I know that they cooperated very much with all the countries in Europe for the orthodox situation and the problems that exist. It's a very friendly organization and they try their best. I think it's very good that they can exchange ideas.

One thing with the members of Parliament of Islam is that it would help a lot, especially when they are from this country, from this continent, the western world and the east, if they would be able to exchange ideas and see that freedom would be respected for all people.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much. That's all the time we have.

We'll turn it over to Mr. Dewar for five minutes.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I want to start my question and I want to make a comment for all of our witnesses that you should know and that I should have mentioned at the beginning to you. We are doing a study on this issue, but we're going to be doing a report. For anything that's not captured, or you have a thought afterwards, please feel free to send in recommendations, reports, or thoughts to our capable crew here to help us with our work.

I want to start with Father Toma. I was with Mr. Garneau, as well as Minister Baird, and we were all very troubled by what we saw. I'd been in the same region in 2007 when it was an island of stability, security, and diversity, and it was quite shocking for me to see. I want to follow up on a comment you made because there are some things we disagree with the government on. There are things we agree on and there's a consensus on; that we should be involved, and that humanitarian assistance was absolutely critical. Mr. Garneau I'm sure would agree that everyone we talked to, including our ambassador, was emphatic about the need to immediately help those in need, and that notwithstanding that there has been some help, there's not enough.

I wanted to quickly hear from you. You were saying that the pledges have been made, but the response, the aid, has not been delivered. A clear question is who should Canada be dialoguing with? We met with people from the Barzani group, which is an NGO. Is that who we should be coordinating our efforts with? Churches obviously, but help us here, because I think it's critical that we get our support on the ground and get the aid delivered. Perhaps you can help us with that, how we can speed things up.

[Rev Niaz Toma]

Thank you very much for this question.

I think the focus was given to the Yezidis. I described how they were treated in a different way. There were more damages. They suffered a lot. The Christians who fled to Erbil, Duhok, and Slemani were welcomed by the church agencies. It was the church's establishment that was incapable with their capacity to accommodate all of the needs, but it was quite different. I think the focus was given to the Yezidis.

We already met with some officials. They told us that the Canadian government made a contract with the Red Cross and we asked “Why the holy cross?”, because these international agencies spend 30% of the amounts they receive on administrative expenses. We heard confirmation that “No, we made an agreement with them that we reduced the 30% to 10%, and we think it is reasonable”. Then we heard that “Oh, 50% will go to the Red Cross and 50% will go through agencies that we will approve of, so who do you suggest?” We suggested some agencies like CNEWA because at least it's a Canadian registered agency that is reputable and credible. We suggested Caritas Canada and we suggested Development and Peace.

These agencies work so closely with the people, with the displaced, that we're going to be able to show that this donation, this support, is coming from the Canadian government. Our people never heard about something that came from the Canadian government.

I don't know. We are caught in this situation.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

That's very helpful. I would encourage you to think of other names and partners. That would be great.

In the time remaining, I want to go to you, Professor Akhavan, and perhaps Mr. Lamani. We have a concern with regard to Syria and we haven't talked about that. There is the door open within the military combat mission that the Canadian government has engaged in, that there's a possibility—and certainly we're asking about it in the House of Commons right now—that we might be looking at air strikes within Syria. Based on some of your commentary, I want to hear your analysis of what the perils of that might be, particularly in the way Assad is playing the game.

Professor Akhavan, maybe to start with you.

[Dr. Payam Akhavan]

As I explained, the Assad regime has successfully positioned itself as the lesser of the two evils, and there is in effect a military alliance now between the west and the Assad regime. One of the questions, of course, is not to identify ISIL as the enemy, but to think about what is the endgame. What is the endgame that the international community wishes to pursue with respect to Syria and with respect to Iraq and the wider regime? Otherwise, we're just going to be putting out one small fire in the middle of a much bigger conflagration.

The question remains about somehow restarting a peace process in Syria and dealing with the massive crimes that the Assad regime has created against the population. There can be no meaningful long-term solution and stability unless those underlying issues are dealt with.

I do want to end, though, by saying that while I think the military solution is insufficient, it is of course very important, for example, that ISIL has been denied the right to use a hydro dam, oil facilities.... The denial of those facilities through military means is important in defeating ISIL.

We have to also recognize that most of the advances on the ground have been by the peshmerga working in conjunction with the Iranian revolutionary guards. As I said, politics makes for strange bedfellows, and there is a profound realignment going on in the Middle East today.

[Paul Dewar, NDP, Ottawa Centre, ON]

Monsieur Lamani?