Foreign Affairs Committee on Nov. 27th, 2014

[Dr. Payam Akhavan]

Well, we've had a strong military component now for many years in that region of the world, and it has really seemingly only exacerbated the problems. Does Iraq need a solid national non-sectarian army? Absolutely. It's a pity that after all these years, there was a failure to create such an army, as some of the other witnesses have explained.

In the long term, western military involvement is only going to be a small part of the solution. We need to create strong national institutions in Iraq and somehow in neighbouring Syria as well, but beyond that, we need to invest much more in aid and reconstruction in creating the institutions and political spaces that will move those societies away from sectarian violence.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Mr. Lamani, you talked a bit about the importance of citizenship and people seeing themselves as citizens of a country. I'm just wondering, do you have any suggestions on how we could encourage that perception of citizenship at a time like this? What are some of the things that we could be doing from here?

[Mokhtar Lamani]

Let me, as a practitioner, give one real example. When they were discussing the constitution, we were asking them to bring some experts from other countries who have huge experience about that, and we were trying to explain that it is protection for everybody, majorities as well minorities. When we developed the idea of....

I remember some of the talks that I got in Iraq on equal citizenship. They said, “We are not like the west.” I said, “Well, India.” It happened once that India had a prime minister from a minority Muslim and the president was from another minority, was a Sikh. But nobody was saying that they were not Indians. So if it's working there, why isn't it working in the Middle East?

I do strongly believe that, if we don't put that in the constitution and work on it, there is no way of just trying to have some other solution. What I don't agree with in general, especially the west, is that it's much more in the position of reacting than acting. We saw it everywhere. Now we're hearing about beheaded westerners. You know, the same day they beheaded a westerner, ISIL killed more than 1,000 Muslims, and mainly Sunnis from their own communities that they are pretending to develop.

So if we don't go deeply into all these issues and help them with the institutions, then it's just not going to work.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Father Toma and Reverend El Shafie, one of the things that we've been emphasizing is religious freedom, and we have the office that's been put in place. There are three principles behind what we're trying to do. People need to have some basic rights: the freedom to believe, the freedom to practise that belief, and the freedom to be able to change that belief.

I'm just wondering, how can we work to realize those things in this area, or is this not a time when we're able to do that realistically?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Thank you, Mr. Anderson, for your question.

First of all, of course it's important that Canada built a freedom of religion office here with the leadership of Dr. Andrew Bennett. It's a great step not just on Canadian soil but even internationally. However, I think one of the main issues we have to deal with when this comes to the situation in Iraq is education. I really believe this is part of the problem that we are facing right now.

When the Arab Spring started...and we indicated previously that the Arab Spring has turned out to be a cold, deadly winter for the minorities. Allow me to express that we are all against dictatorships—Mubarak in Egypt, or Ali Abdullah Saleh in Yemen, or Gaddafi in Libya, and so on—but the problem when you take a dictatorship out is that you create a political vacuum. The ones using this political vacuum are the Muslim extremists and that's what we saw happening in many countries—Libya and Egypt, and so on.

If we speak about the Egyptian society, for example, we find that 30% to 40% of the Egyptian society is illiterate. They don't know how to read and write their own name. Even if we reform the constitution they don't know what they are voting on. They will follow somebody with a beard who says, “You know, you'll go to Heaven if you follow me.” That's where the office of freedom of religion comes in, by promoting freedom of religion. There will never be a true democracy in the Middle East without establishing two foundations: number one is the freedom of religion; number two is the separation between the religion and the state. There will never be a democracy in the Middle East without the separation between the religion and the state.

I find that the office of freedom of religion here in Canada and abroad can be a strong instrument when it comes to education, when it comes to the next generation, when it comes to putting in place dedication to separating between the religion and the state, and establishing true freedom of religion using our aid as an encouragement tool.

Thank you.

[David Anderson, Conservative, Cypress Hills—Grasslands, SK]

Father Toma, do you have any comments?

[Rev Niaz Toma]

Thank you very much for the question.

I can see that the key is the integration between the principles and the values of human rights, and the values of each and every religion. If we have an integration then there is no problem.

The problem in the Middle East, especially with Islam, is that there is a teaching, which is widely accepted among Muslims, that if you are a Muslim and change and convert to any other religion, you are sentenced to death. That's the main obstacle.

If we are talking about Canada, we are concerned; there is a freedom of religion, but we are concerned about a situation where somebody will jump in and say one day, “Well, it is multicultural, multi-faith, freedom of religion; I believe in this and that, and my religion tells me to do this and that.” The charter of human rights will say, “Oh, yes, we approve of this. This is your religion, and we are a free country.”

We are very concerned that we reach such a situation here in Canada. The obstacle in the Middle East is what I shared with you. It is a widely accepted teaching in Islam that whoever converts to any other religion is sentenced to death. So we have this dilemma. It will take a long time until....

I had back home in Iraq—I still consider myself a newcomer although I came to Canada 12 years ago—friends who converted to Islam but in secrecy, complete secrecy, because of the fear. Even here when they have families, extended families, there is still this social fear and pressure that they feel.

We have to work one step at a time in order to enhance the values of freedom of religion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you.

Thank you very much, Mr. Anderson.

We'll finish off the first round with Mr. Garneau. Seven minutes, please.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you very much for your testimony. Please don't think me rude if I interrupt you. I only have seven minutes today, and I want to ask three questions. My first is for Dr. Akhavan.

Many people have mentioned the lifeblood to ISIS of funding—I'm not talking about black-market oil—from countries like Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Turkey, and others. Is it realistic to be able to stop that flow? Do you know if the governments of those countries are doing anything to try to stop that flow? It's certainly an important element.

[Dr. Payam Akhavan]

Thank you, Mr. Garneau.

My understanding is that there have been certain divisions of opinion within the Saudi Arabian political establishment itself about Saudi Arabia's regional role, and that certain steps have been taken to try to control the flow of funds, and much more needs to be done. Part of the solution, as I explained, is to dis-incentivize the use of religious extremism as an instrument of power in the region. Of course, part of that also is to accommodate Iran, which also is using religious extremism for its own purposes. That's why I explained, there's a kind of dialectic of extremism, but the funding flows are very important.

The danger, though, is that ISIS, unlike al-Qaeda, is a state that has resources that it can use to raise revenues on the black market. So beyond cutting the funding from the Gulf States, that is another problem that has to be accommodated. There were even some accounts of the Assad regime buying oil from ISIL in the early months of its rise, apparently to help ISIL gain some further strength and prominence. As I explained, in a very cynical strategy of positioning, the Assad regime is the lesser evil of the two.

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Thank you.

Reverend Toma, I had the opportunity to be in Iraq and to go up to Erbil in September, and I met with Chaldean clerics, including the bishop of Mosul. We talked about ISIS having possession of Mosul, the second-largest city in Iraq, now with two million people, or probably fewer because many have fled. But I'd like to get a sense from you, do you know how strong that control is? This is the biggest city, we're told, that ISIS controls. Do they have full control of the population? Are they imbedded, or is it a tenuous hold?

[Rev Niaz Toma]

Actually, all our sources of information from Mosul confirm that they have absolute control, especially with the sympathy shown by the people of Mosul.

Just to back up a little bit, there was always a tension between the Muslims of Mosul and the Christians, although it was something not floating on the surface, because of the Saddam regime, because of the transitional stages that Iraq faced during the last century. Yet with all the information provided, I can say that they have full control. Not only that; they have high technology. An eyewitness told me that when Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi delivered his speech at the Mosul mosque on Friday, he was very calm. It was very secured to the extent that even cellphones in the area were cut off. Who owns this technology? You can't buy this technology at the corner store.

As another example, when the Americans started their air strikes, there was a huge establishment that during the Saddam regime was a military-industry establishment. ISIL took that establishment as a headquarters for themselves in Mosul, and from there they were running it. The night before this building was bombed and destroyed completely, ISIL evacuated, so....

[Marc Garneau, Liberal, Westmount—Ville-Marie, QC]

Very quickly to Mr. Lamani, ISIS has been particularly successful in predominantly Sunni provinces, such as Anbar. How much are they winning over Sunnis as they move forward, and how much of it is just, “Well, we'll cooperate out of fear”?

[Mokhtar Lamani]

I think the population in these provinces is much more reacting against the Maliki government and sectarian government—the enemy of my enemy can't be a friend of mine—but I heard from a lot of people that they don't trust and they don't want.... They had a bad experience with the same groups that pushed the Americans to have the Awakening forces in 2007-08 and defeated them. Now the tribe they would like to join, but now they don't want to have the same experience joining, risking their lives for nothing. They're asking what is going to happen to be part of Iraq.

If I may, on what was mentioned about the UN declaration on freedom of religion, it's freedom of religion and belief. It's also freedom “from” religion as well as freedom “of” religion.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

We'll now start our second round with Mr. Hawn.

You have five minutes, sir.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

Thank you all for being here.

I agree with the distinction between short- and long-term solutions. In the short term, one of course being security and stopping ISIS, stopping the killing and so on.

So initially for that, Mr. El Shafie, I agree that the air campaign is an important contribution, but it can't succeed on its own without boots on the ground. In my view, and I think most views in Canada, those boots should not be western boots: American, Canadian, British, or whomever. Canada has a lot of experience and is very good at training. I'm told by folks who have experience in this that there is about a 20,000-person cadre of the Iraqi army that is very trainable and is/was at a fairly high level, and within about six months, with about 350 or so professional trainers, that division could effectively be in the field.

Do you have any thoughts on that?

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

I agree with you that the boots on the ground can't be westerner boots. However, I will share with you something from my own experience that's very important. I travelled to Afghanistan before and I saw our training. Definitely the Canadian soldiers did a great job training the military there. The only problem is that often when we train an army like that.... America has been in Iraq for the last 10 years training the Iraqi army, and where's the Iraqi army now?

I will be honest with you. I will not be politically correct here, because I am really sick and tired of political correctness. I will just say it the way it is. The Americans supported, for example, bin Laden during the time of the mujahedeen and turned against them; supported Saddam Hussein during the Iranian war and turned against them; supported the Libyan rebels who killed their American ambassador three months later.

What's the definition of insanity? It's repeating the same action and expecting different outcomes.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

With respect, that's not what I'm talking about, sir. I'm talking about the viability of training forces so that local forces can provide boots on the ground.

[Rev. Majed El Shafie]

Yes, I agree with you that this is a good step. However, we need to find a trusted partner to do this with.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

I totally agree.

I would like to switch to the longer term. We talked about education and reconciliation, and Your Eminence, you talked about schools in Canada, about terrorist factories, and trying to find a way to shut them down. Could you expand on that? Where are the terrorist factories in that part of the world? Where are they in Canada or in the west?

[Archbishop Sotirios Athanassoulas]

I'm sure all of us realize that everyone is not self-radicalized. There are teachers and factory schools that teach them. It was mentioned before that in the Middle East everyone is fearful that you can't even change your allegiance. You have no freedom whatsoever.

What about the places that are run by people who teach Islam? The government should know those places better than I do. It is the duty of the government, not only of Canada but of the governments of the world, to find them and correct the situation because long-term solutions can only be found that way.

This young lady Malala, for example, who was not able to continue going to school, those things should be corrected. Those are the places and the factories that produce the jihadists. I can't go on naming places because first of all I don't know them, and I don't think it is necessary. Everyone understands who they are.

[Laurie Hawn, Conservative, Edmonton Centre, AB]

They do, and I wish that political correctness would allow us to be a little more open about that. Maybe that time will come. I think there should be government involvement in that. Whether it's in Canada, U.S., Great Britain, or wherever, we cannot let that go on underground and just pretend it's not happening. Hopefully we'll get to that point.

We also talked about the organizations that come in with apparently the best of intentions, and they come in and they do good things: Muslim Brotherhood, Taliban, organizations like that. How do we get people to see through—and maybe we can't—the real intentions of organizations like the Muslim Brotherhood so that people are maybe not quite as accepting or quite as gullible when they come into their neighbourhoods, so to speak?

[Archbishop Sotirios Athanassoulas]

It was mentioned here earlier that sometimes the Arab Spring that was supported by us westerners did not bring the best results.

I was talking to some people, especially the Copts, who say that they were much better off with Mubarak, and even today, than they were when they had a democratic government there. How do we understand this? It's not easy to say. But at the same time, we know that they are organized, the teachers of Islam. I mentioned before that in Christianity we have made mistakes. It's about time they realized that what they are doing is harming Islam more than harming anybody else. It's harming their people more than they're harming the rest of the people.

I don't know whether I'm on subject, but I would like to say something else here. In England, remember that it was reported in the news that some Muslims said, “We don't care about your laws. We have to obey the laws of God.” God is not only the one that they believe in. We must think here: is it a false god that we believe in when we teach things like this? And how should we respect the freedom of the individual? I personally believe that freedom is the element that makes human beings perfect. Without freedom, a man or a woman is not a perfect human being.

We have to think about those things. As I said in my introductory remarks, we should find the long solution rather than the solution of the day, because unless we change the thinking of the people—especially the Muslim people—we are not going to be able to do anything. That's what I believe.

[The Chair, Conservative, Dean Allison]

Thank you very much.

We're going to move over to Madame Laverdière for five minutes, please.

[Hélène Laverdière, NDP, Laurier—Sainte-Marie, QC]

Thank you, Mr. Chair.

I also want to thank all the people who have come today to provide these very interesting presentations. There have also been comments I took good note of, in particular the ones concerning longer-term humanitarian aid, but also the ones on governance and education, which are very important topics.

As to the current situation and reaction, some of you mentioned that the bombings could contribute to radicalization. According to the Syrian Observatory for Human Rights, after the first American bombings, ISIS managed to recruit more people.

Reverend Toma, you made a comment in your presentation and I would like to know if I understood you correctly. I believe I understood that the more frequent the attacks, the more progress ISIS makes.

Did I understand you correctly, and if that is the case, could you provide more details about that situation?